Overweight, Elderly, Uncurrent Skydiver

[mcordell 2]

Not to mention, at no point did the DZO say in the letter that he had to get down to 230 and reverse in age to 45. He clearly told the guy he would let him jump if he got to a reasonable weight, however, the health concerns ARE compounded by the guy's age. That's just a fact.

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[airdvr 197]

I understand. My questions still stands. Mr. Defendant, can you point out where the detailed age and weight restrictions are for Mr. Old Fattie? Who sets those standards? What enforcement agency is in charge of ensuring compliance to those standards? Can you show me the area where the weight requirement is stated? On the gear? You mean this gear that the plaintiff purchased from the manufacturer? Why would the manufacturer sell my client this gear if he was unfit to operate it safely?

You don't even need a lawyer to file a civil rights charge. It would automatically go to mediation at what point your insurance company (if you have one) might decide it's cheaper to settle. All it really takes is someone who feels badly about the way you handled them in comparison to others and a bored attorney and voila...a discrimination suit is born.

I'm f*##ing with you but don't think it couldn't happen.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[yoink 321]

airdvr

I understand. My questions still stands. Mr. Defendant, can you point out where the detailed age and weight restrictions are for Mr. Old Fattie? Who sets those standards? What enforcement agency is in charge of ensuring compliance to those standards?

"the gear weight restrictions are set by the parachute manufacturers and the FAA who issue the TSO on reserve equipment.
At my dropzone, I enforce those standards based on my experience and concern for the safety of the person in question. I believe they are in line with the vast majority of every other Dropzone in the country..."


Seems simple enough to me.

I honestly think you're seeing a lawsuit where there isn't any. No one is discriminating against the guy because of things which are out of his control.
He's not being refused a jump because of his age. He's being refused because of his weight...
His weight and his age combined present a much greater safety risk together than for someone younger. That's just a fact.

[jakee 1,254]

Remster

I would remove "let alone your advanced age and weight."

You've addressed the weight issue, and the age is only going to get him aggravated.

Yes, but on the other hand age is an aggravating factor.

Males over 70 are automatically considered to be at risk of low bone density and rapidly accelerating loss of muscle mass, even when regularly active let alone sedentary and obese. This multiplies the risk of injury compared with considering his weight alone.

Talking about his age may not be tactful, but it is directly relevant.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jakee 1,254]

Quote

I'm just wondering what it was he wanted to do that was so dangerous for you? Devil's advocate here; he had a rig, you've told him that you don't think it's safe for him to jump. I'm sure he's signed your 16 page waiver. Add a 17th page that is the letter above.

Yeah but seriously - the guy will hurt himself sooner or later and would you want to deal with the hassle?

Think of it this way - a guy comes up to you with a shotgun in one hand and a suicide note in the other and asks to use your back yard for 5 minutes and promises you won't get sued. How much consolation is the lack of legal action when you're scrubbing his blood off the patio?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

airdvr

You don't even need a lawyer to file a civil rights charge. It would automatically go to mediation at what point your insurance company (if you have one) might decide it's cheaper to settle...

Bolding mine.

It's a DZ.

What insurance company?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[grimmie 173]

airdvr

I understand. My questions still stands. Mr. Defendant, can you point out where the detailed age and weight restrictions are for Mr. Old Fattie? Who sets those standards? What enforcement agency is in charge of ensuring compliance to those standards? Can you show me the area where the weight requirement is stated? On the gear? You mean this gear that the plaintiff purchased from the manufacturer? Why would the manufacturer sell my client this gear if he was unfit to operate it safely?

You don't even need a lawyer to file a civil rights charge. It would automatically go to mediation at what point your insurance company (if you have one) might decide it's cheaper to settle. All it really takes is someone who feels badly about the way you handled them in comparison to others and a bored attorney and voila...a discrimination suit is born.

I'm f*##ing with you but don't think it couldn't happen.

"Discrimination" is when you allow one non current 74 year old, 270lb jumper jump, but not another 270lb, 74 year old.

Not allowing any of them to jump is good business practice, in accordance with probably every DZ's waiver, under the "good health" clause.

And with about 10 minutes of internet research, you can find many incidents involving similarly situated jumpers causing their own death or serious injury.

[Andy9o8 0]

In a nutshell (which is all I have time for): Your points are reasonable to raise for discussion, and they don't fall on deaf ears; but at the end of the day they won't win the day, and very probably won't even result in any "just go away" money being shifted into the claimant's pockets.

[Bertt 0]

I realize that the issue has been resolved and my comment is a bit late, but:
That guy is not current. Regardless of his previous experience and ratings, SIM section 5.2.D requires him to make one or more jumps under the supervision of an instructional rating holder. Unless I missed it, this point wasn't mentioned, but would any of you want to take him out on a coached jump?
If he wants to jump alone, he can hire a pilot to take him up, but at a USPA dz, his first jump will necessarily involve someone else.
Just a thought; carry on.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[skydived19006 4]

Bertt

I realize that the issue has been resolved and my comment is a bit late, but:
That guy is not current. Regardless of his previous experience and ratings, SIM section 5.2.D requires him to make one or more jumps under the supervision of an instructional rating holder. Unless I missed it, this point wasn't mentioned, but would any of you want to take him out on a coached jump?
If he wants to jump alone, he can hire a pilot to take him up, but at a USPA dz, his first jump will necessarily involve someone else.
Just a thought; carry on.

It's totally moot since he's not jumping. The SIM now suggests a jump under supervision, and can be full altitude free fall. It could also be a H&P, so supervised from the airplane.

I had also thought that were he determined, and I'm sure he has the knowledge, he could find a buddy with a pilot's certificate and airplane. Or rent an airplane, and go exit the thing. None of my business if he goes and hurts or kills himself somewhere else, no paperwork on my end. Though if it were done in Kansas and he did die, the local news media would be contacting me regardless.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[jclalor 12]

skydived19006

For consideration, comment, etc.

I was contacted by and have talked with at the DZ a couple of times an old skydiver. The guy has some 500 or 1000 jumps as I recall starting in the 1970s with his last jump 20 some years back. He had military jumps, and I'm jealous of the aircraft types noted in his log books. Many demonstration jumps, etc. All around very experienced guy.

Currently he's 78 years old, and in the neighborhood of 270 lbs. He had decided that he was going to start jumping again, so obviously (in his mind) the first step would be to buy gear. He called Strong Enterprises and ordered up a MC-4 system complete with 470 sf main and reserve parachutes, ripcord and spring loaded PC.

So far, he'd been flatly refused at one Kansas DZ. He indicated that another Kansas DZ had informed him that a modern AAD would be required to jump, but no doubt he wouldn't be allowed to jump with one, that was just the end of the conversation at that point is my guess.

I talked with him and advised that I would consider letting him jump with us were he able to get down to 230 lbs. He indicates that he has some sort of issue that would make achieving that weight next to impossible and that it will not happen. I've since given it more thought, and wrote the following letter which I plan to mail to him later today (I don't have an email address, and need to mail him the check book that he left behind anyway).

John (not the real name),
Since we talked Saturday, I’ve given your desire to jump again and your current state of physicality a bit more thought.

I’m not sure of your height, but guessing somewhere in the 5’8” range, and I think that at one time you had mentioned a weight of 270. For a man of 5’8” the ideal weight range is 145 to 165 lbs. 170 to 190 is considered to be overweight, and anything over 200 lbs being obese. At 270, you’re in excess of 100 lbs overweight, and obviously well into any definition of obesity. I wouldn't let someone 100 lbs overweight at 30 years of age jump, and with you age you’re more apt to injury than someone younger.

It’s not about whether the canopy is rated for the load, but basic physical fitness and susceptibility to injury. We've had serious injuries and death on our DZ, I think that I would be pushing negligence and would undoubtedly be accused of such were I to allow someone of your physical state to jump, let alone your advanced age and weight. I would without doubt be accused of such by media in the event of a serious injury, or fatality.

I had indicated that I would let you jump if you were able to get down to 230 lbs (50 lbs overweight). All things considered 230 lbs is marginable, but at this point I’ll hold to that number. Though, you've indicated that you’re not ever going to achieve that number, so it’s likely a moot point.

I would also require a modern (digital) automatic activation device be installed on any gear that you would jump. Just within my small world and time in sport, I know two people who are above ground and upright who would not be were it not for an AAD save, and two more people who had AAD saves and would very likely would have perished otherwise.

Martin Myrtle
Air Capital Drop Zone

Edit: I'm not up on military gear, but looked around a bit. They're more likely 370 SF canopies as opposed to 470.

Wouldn't the first question be if he's a suitable candiate that could also be properly equipped for AFF?

[skydived19006 4]

Quote

Wouldn't the first question be if he's a suitable candiate that could also be properly equipped for AFF?

No.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[justme12001 0]

I was wondering from the beginning if he actually got the rig from strong ent, or did he go on ebay and get one? You can buy complete MC-4s for less than $2,000.00

I was also wondering, since he does have a complete MC-4, could he be put out on a static line jump? Obviously he needs an AAD, but I was thinking send him up on a SL and then at least you know that he will have a canopy (unless there is a mal).

But honestly, if I was the DZO, I probably wouldn't let him jump either!

[jclalor 12]

skydived19006

Quote

Wouldn't the first question be if he's a suitable candiate that could also be properly equipped for AFF?

No.

I ask this question with all sincerity; after 20+ years away from the sport, what type (if any) of re-training would be required before making another jump?

[skydived19006 4]

jclalor

***

Quote

Wouldn't the first question be if he's a suitable candiate that could also be properly equipped for AFF?

No.

I ask this question with all sincerity; after 20+ years away from the sport, what type (if any) of re-training would be required before making another jump?

Check the SIM. Correct me if I'm mistaken. A thorough review of EPs, then a jump under supervision of an Instructor. Beyond that, you have to make it up as you go.

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[peek 20]

skydived19006

Check the SIM. Correct me if I'm mistaken. A thorough review of EPs, then a jump under supervision of an Instructor. Beyond that, you have to make it up as you go.

That is correct. Just so that some people are not horrified at the simplicity of that, we might add that "make it up as you go" means, provide review based on current and local conditions. At a small DZ they may not need much more than that for a solo jump or two. Beyond that you would need to update the jumper on procedures and rules that may not have been in place when they jumped last, especially at a larger DZ.

FYI everyone, I support a business owner's right to do business (or not) with whomever they see fit.

[mcordell 2]

I think the first question is if someone is a suitable candidate for skydiving without consideration to the type of instruction. The "first question" you posed is more than one question. If someone isn't a suitable candidate in general then the method of training doesn't matter. That being said, not every drop zone offers AFF as an instructional method. Aside from the fact he isn't required to start over, I'm not sure why AFF would be a better option for someone with whom you have medical concerns.

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[jclalor 12]

mcordell

I think the first question is if someone is a suitable candidate for skydiving without consideration to the type of instruction. The "first question" you posed is more than one question. If someone isn't a suitable candidate in general then the method of training doesn't matter. That being said, not every drop zone offers AFF as an instructional method. Aside from the fact he isn't required to start over, I'm not sure why AFF would be a better option for someone with whom you have medical concerns.

Your absolutely right. Living in California, I've only seen AFF as the only option for skydiving and so I get a bit jaded.

[skydived19006 4]

jclalor

***I think the first question is if someone is a suitable candidate for skydiving without consideration to the type of instruction. The "first question" you posed is more than one question. If someone isn't a suitable candidate in general then the method of training doesn't matter. That being said, not every drop zone offers AFF as an instructional method. Aside from the fact he isn't required to start over, I'm not sure why AFF would be a better option for someone with whom you have medical concerns.

Your absolutely right. Living in California, I've only seen AFF as the only option for skydiving and so I get a bit jaded.

You need to get out a little bit! If you're traveling, you should intentionally drop in a few 182 DZs. Spend a little time hanging from a strut!

Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

[rehmwa 2]

BIGUN

Quote

Dear John,

After considerable thought; unfortunately we cannot let you skydive at our location given your weight and physical condition due to concerns regarding your safety at this time.

In order to jump here we would require:
1) Your weight not to exceed 220lbs
2) A medical statement from an MD/DO regarding your fitness to parachute
3) A modern digital AAD.

Please understand that these requirements are for your safety.

I wish you the very best, and if you do decide to meet these targets look forward to beginning your training.

Kind Regards,

Leave out the age (discriminatory) and I've done some editing.

No Charge.

This one. Age is not a factor - fitness and gear loading and safety are.


But I like how Martin always tries to be considerate, personal, and caring in a direct way. Courtesy and understanding go a long way with most people. (in this case that happened, good deal)

It's a shame that a small number of self involved asswipes force a lot of us to be very brief and exact in communications rather than make those productive connections.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[kallend 1,623]

jclalor

***

Quote

Wouldn't the first question be if he's a suitable candiate that could also be properly equipped for AFF?

No.

I ask this question with all sincerity; after 20+ years away from the sport, what type (if any) of re-training would be required before making another jump?

In a parallel universe - I certified for SCUBA many years ago and then took 20+ years away. Last month I decided to get back into that sport. Although I could have taken a fairly brief refresher, I decided to start from scratch and go through the entire PADI open water training program from the beginning, since so much had changed. I can't imagine that 20+ years away from skydiving would be much different.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.