rocketdog 0 #76 March 25, 2004 Quote Should the words "under God" be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance? NO -- HOWEVER STUDENTS SHOULD NOT SAY THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE IN SCHOOL!!!!! Schools must constitutionally separate between "church and state".... by acknowledging God they are proving themselves unbiased and highlighting a certain relgion *bad* see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #77 March 25, 2004 Quote Bottom line is if you dont like it then you can not say it. Freedom of speech. Since "under God" wasn't in the original text, why don't we simply remind everyone of their right to excercise free speech, and restore the pledge to its original form? Your kid can ad the phrase if he or she wants to. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #78 March 25, 2004 QuoteDoesn't your money have on it "In GOD WE TRUST". should that be removed as well. Where do you draw the line? It does now. It did not originally. Yes, it should be removed from our money as well. The authors of our constitution drew a line, and politicians stepped over it a long time ago. The sheeple were distracted by fear of communism and didn't object, but they should have. IMHO, of course. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #79 March 25, 2004 >So that makes everything else they have and will do wrong? NOT ?? No, it just means that they are sometimes wrong. Saying "our leaders supported slavery/prohibition/prayer in schools" does not prove that is a good (or a bad) thing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #80 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuotethere may be a valid reason to keep it. However, the reason you listed ain't it. Like I said, according to who??????????? Quoteedit: a large portion of the population supported the Jim Crow laws. Popular support is also not a good reason to continue to do something, especially if popular support is the ONLY reason, particularly if our constitution specifies otherwise. Another nice red herring, but again, we are not talking about the Jim Crow laws either. News flash.......Popular support IS how this country is run. The most votes win. And right or wrong have nothing to do with it. And in the end it won't matter what is right or wrong according to you but rather if it is legal. Your arguments defy all the rules of logic. You admit that just because something has always been done a certain way it does not make it right, so why did you bring up the founding fathers' actions in the first place as justification for keeping these words? You admit that just because a majority want something that does not make it right, so why did you bring that up in the first place as justification? The only justification is that in 1954 some senators were scared of the godless commies.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #81 March 25, 2004 QuoteYou admit that just because something has always been done a certain way it does not make it right, No that was Nightingale. I said it does not make it wrong either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #82 March 25, 2004 if your argument of popular support and a history of doing something doesn't make it right, and it doesn't make it wrong (as you've just agreed), you've just stated that your argument is irrelevant to the topic, which is whether having "under God" in the pledge is right or wrong. You have supplied utterly meaningless data with little or no relevance to the debate at hand. ok. edit: Your use of the phrase "it doesn't make it wrong EITHER" requires agreement with my original statement that it doesn't make it right. The word "either" in that phrase requires agreement with the previous statement of "It doesn't make it right." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #83 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou admit that just because something has always been done a certain way it does not make it right, No that was Nightingale. I said it does not make it wrong either. You just proved my point.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #84 March 25, 2004 QuoteYou just proved my point. Since we are playing word games I will try and make my intent and view clear. I agree that in this case that because we have chosen to do it this way that it right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #85 March 25, 2004 QuoteYou have supplied utterly meaningless data with little or no relevance to the debate at hand. ok. According to you. The will of the people and our history is meaningless? I think not. How can you possibly say that the will and desires of over 200 million Americans means nothing? Do you really think that you get to decide what is relevant to this debate? No, you only get to decide if you agree with it or not. The simple solution is wait and see how the court rules. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #86 March 25, 2004 QuoteWhy do we pledge allegiance to the flag anyway? Why do we insist on confusing the symbols with the things they symbolize? On that theme Quade stop using money since it is only a symolic representation of the gold backing it. Paper money and checks have not true value ... They are just symbols. Chris ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #87 March 25, 2004 QuoteQuoteYou have supplied utterly meaningless data with little or no relevance to the debate at hand. ok. According to you. The will of the people and our history is meaningless? I think not. How can you possibly say that the will and desires of over 200 million Americans means nothing? Do you really think that you get to decide what is relevant to this debate? No, you only get to decide if you agree with it or not. The simple solution is wait and see how the court rules. I don't recall 200 million Americans being consulted about adding the words "Under God" to the pledge back in 1954.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #88 March 25, 2004 QuoteI don't recall 200 million Americans being consulted about adding the words "Under God" to the pledge back in 1954. I am talking about now. Or to be more accurate, take 90% of the current population that wants to keep it that way. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #89 March 25, 2004 and what 90% of the population wants is completely irrelevant at this point, as the debate has gone to the supreme court and is out of the hands of the elected officials. We do not live in a total democracy. Our government is based on the constitution first, and the will of the people second. When the two are in contrast, the constitution comes first. if you want to amend the constitution, that's another matter entirely, and honestly, it'd be interesting to watch you try. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #90 March 25, 2004 QuoteWe do not live in a total democracy. Our government is based on the constitution first, and the will of the people second. When the two are in contrast, the constitution comes first. if you want to amend the constitution, that's another matter entirely, and honestly, it'd be interesting to watch you try. The constitution is subservient to the people because the people created and can change the constitution (democracy). And if you think that it cannot be changed then you might want to look at the 27 amendments that have changed it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #91 March 25, 2004 At this point, the justices must use the constitution AS IT STANDS. Like I said before, if you want to try to amend it, be my guest, but right now, that argument is irrelevant to the current case. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #92 March 25, 2004 people place way too much importance on "in god we trust" and way too little on "E Pluribus Unium" my latin is pretty shitty(read non existant) but the concept is so much more what America is about then anything to do with god(s) oh and our money is on the "world standard" not the "Gold standard" hasn't been gold for a long long time, notes called silver certificates once could have been changed for a specific amount of sliver (or gold for the larger bills) but those bills aren't currency anymore. Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #93 March 25, 2004 Quoteman john you love hot button issues dont you. I pesronaly think it should stay in. WHy caseu it is the way i was taught, it is what i know. i will not change the pledge. I will alawys say under God. Yes i am a christian but that doesnt matter that much. Bottom line is if you dont like it then you can not say it. Freedom of speech. Not exactly. You are beinbg forced to actively ignore it. That's not a freedom of speech issue. If I was toinsert "Under Satan" in the pledge and tell you to just ignore it, you might see the issue a little more clearly. It was stuck in 50 years ago as a sop to the red menace paranoids, and has no place in there. Let's return it to it's original and proper form. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gjhdiver 0 #94 March 25, 2004 QuoteNews flash.......Popular support IS how this country is run. Incorrect, but then you seem a little confused by the corner you've backed into on this issue. Let me take you back to Nov 2000. Popular vote - Al Gore President - The Moron from Midland. Care to revisit your hypothesis. Looking up "representative republic" might help. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HRHSkyPrincess 0 #95 March 25, 2004 You are absolutely correct. Let's say the Pledge the way it was originally written. It was tampered with by knee-jerk 'patriots' 50 years ago. They were wrong. It's time to correct that error in judgement. Let us all remember one of the premises our country was founded upon was freedom OF and FROM religion. I've never said the words 'under God' in my adult life. Never will and ya can't make me!***************** Attitude is everything! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #96 March 25, 2004 Quotestudents are not required to say the pledge. however, students are seldom informed of their right to abstain. Really? You know that's fact in every school? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #97 March 25, 2004 I can't guarantee EVERY school, but I can speak for a decent sample size. However, I am finishing up a master's in education next month, and do have quite a bit of experience with public school systems. This is actually something I did a research project on in my "Education and the Law" class. I was writing on the separation of church and state in public schools. Since the whole "school prayer" thing has been settled by the supreme court, I decided to research the pledge instead. I phoned one school district in every state (and in large states, phoned several) and asked them that very question. Every one of them said "If a child tells us that they have a problem saying the pledge, we tell them its okay not to. However, we don't make a point of telling all the students that they don't have to say it." My argument in my paper was "how can we expect students to exercise their rights if they are deliberately kept ignorant of those rights?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #98 March 25, 2004 QuoteOn that theme Quade stop using money since it is only a symolic representation of the gold backing it. Paper money and checks have not true value ... They are just symbols. Ummm...we haven't been on the gold standard for a long long time. True story..the ATM across the street from my office has the graphiti "Participate in capitalism" written on the front of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #99 March 25, 2004 also: Seldom does not equal "never." seldom means "not often, infrequently, or rarely." Students are NOT OFTEN informed of their rights regarding the pledge. SOMETIMES, but infrequently, a teacher will make it a point to talk to students about something like this, but it occurs RARELY. clear? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kennedy 0 #100 March 25, 2004 QuoteSchools must constitutionally separate between "church and state".... by acknowledging God they are proving themselves unbiased and highlighting a certain relgion *bad* So why don't you point out where in the consitution it says every mention of religion must be removed from public forums. Or even just find the phrase "church and state" for us.witty subliminal message Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards. 1* Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
