Ron 7 #51 March 24, 2004 I don't care. It probably should not be in there...But I could just not say it if I felt that it was bad.. One Nation, under ---, indivisible with justice for all."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
genoyamamoto 0 #52 March 24, 2004 Quote-Does anyone else find it stupidly ironic that I posted in this thread such as I did with this avatar?? BWAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! Just bustin' on myself... Why yes but I was waiting for my turn to hijack this thread oh princess of darkness. Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me Feel the hate... Photos here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #53 March 24, 2004 QuoteThe generic use of the word GOD has and always will be a part of our country. It was our founding fathers acknowledgement and intent as indicated in the Declaration of Independence. Even the Supreme Court of the United States that is hearing the case starts every session by stating "God save the United States and this honorable Court". The nation was also founded on the principles of slavery. Guess we should have hung on to that tradition too? Bottom line is, it wasn't always part of the pledge. The pledge wasn't always required to be recited by school children. It is now. In effect, the government is forcing this child to make a pledge to god. That's wrong and should be corrected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ACMESkydiver 0 #54 March 24, 2004 Quote[replyWhy yes but I was waiting for my turn to hijack this thread oh princess of darkness. 'Princess' would be Kennedy's way of bustin' on me, Geno. Either stand in line, or get a new insult!! Actually 'Princess of Darkness' is a little more evil...Mwahahahahaaaaaa...me likes that.....~Jaye Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #55 March 24, 2004 just because something has always been done a certain way does not make it the right thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #56 March 24, 2004 students are not required to say the pledge. however, students are seldom informed of their right to abstain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #57 March 24, 2004 Quotejust because something has always been done a certain way does not make it the right thing to do. According to who??????????????????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #58 March 24, 2004 Well, people have kept slaves since the earliest historical records. However, we can pretty much all agree that slavery is the wrong way to go about things. Should we continue to keep slaves simply because its the way we've always done it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #59 March 25, 2004 Quotejust because something has always been done a certain way does not make it the right thing to do. Nor does it make it wrong! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #60 March 25, 2004 QuoteWell, people have kept slaves since the earliest historical records. However, we can pretty much all agree that slavery is the wrong way to go about things. Should we continue to keep slaves simply because its the way we've always done it? But we are not talking about slavery. And by the way, if your were a slave you did not have a choice to participate or not! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #61 March 25, 2004 of course not. it does make "that's the way we've always done it" an invalid justification for continuing the pattern. by all means, continue to do something if there is valid reason for it. stop if there is reason to stop. however, doing something just because you always have is downright silly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #62 March 25, 2004 Quoteby all means, continue to do something if there is valid reason for it. stop if there is reason to stop. however, doing something just because you always have is downright silly. So you don't think that there is a "valid" reason to keep it? How about choice and the will of the people. Our founding fathers thought it was valid. Our leaders that we elected to represent us and who added it to the pledge thought it was valid. And 90% of the present population thinks it is valid. But I guess they are all just "downright silly" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #63 March 25, 2004 QuoteIn Reply To -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ...Do the kids really understand what it all means anyways... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That's exactly what your average German said about the Hitler Youth's programs... Well now, that's quite a stretch. The next thing you know, folks will be making analogies between kindergarden and a madrassa._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #64 March 25, 2004 QuoteAnd 90% of the present population thinks it is valid. But I guess they are all just "downright silly" Where did you get that number? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
moodyskydiver 0 #65 March 25, 2004 Robin Williams: QuoteI have a solution to this 'under God' debate! Why dont we just say 'one nation under Canada,above Mexico..' I heard this during his Live on Broadway show. "...just an earthbound misfit, I." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #66 March 25, 2004 QuoteWhere did you get that number? CNN, FOX, ABC, CBS and about every other news agency that has been running polls. So that I don't quote them wrong, what they said was "nine out of ten people". I was the one who put it into mathmatical form Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #67 March 25, 2004 QuoteI have a solution to this 'under God' debate! Why dont we just say 'one nation under Canada,above Mexico..' We have a winner.....moodyskydiver She has sovled the great debate!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #68 March 25, 2004 there may be a valid reason to keep it. However, the reason you listed ain't it. edit: a large portion of the population supported the Jim Crow laws. Popular support is also not a good reason to continue to do something, especially if popular support is the ONLY reason, particularly if our constitution specifies otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #69 March 25, 2004 Quotethere may be a valid reason to keep it. However, the reason you listed ain't it. Like I said, according to who??????????? Quoteedit: a large portion of the population supported the Jim Crow laws. Popular support is also not a good reason to continue to do something, especially if popular support is the ONLY reason, particularly if our constitution specifies otherwise. Another nice red herring, but again, we are not talking about the Jim Crow laws either. News flash.......Popular support IS how this country is run. The most votes win. And right or wrong have nothing to do with it. And in the end it won't matter what is right or wrong according to you but rather if it is legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #70 March 25, 2004 >How about choice and the will of the people. Definitely! Let them say whatever they want. >Our founding fathers thought it was valid. No, they did not put "under god" in the pledge - unless you thought some 1950's senators count as founding fathers. >Our leaders that we elected to represent us and who added it to the > pledge thought it was valid. Our leaders thought slavery, prohibition, segregation and sexism were all valid too. They turned out to be wrong. >And 90% of the present population > thinks it is valid. But I guess they are all just "downright silly" Sometimes, yes. Even if 90% of the people in the US wanted to do away with free speech, it would be very difficult to do. Our government is set up to protect certain rights even if many people want them abolished. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #71 March 25, 2004 according to the supreme court, who, over the lifespan of this country, has had several rulings that went against popular support or could be classified as controversial. among these: Brown v. Board of Education (1954) Cantwell v. Connecticut Texas v. Johnson (1989) Shelley v. Kraemer (1948) Illinois vs. McCollum (1948) Engel vs. Vitale (1962) Tinker v. Des Moines Community School District (1969) University of California Regents v. Bakke (1978) Roe v. Wade (1973) Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857) Marbury v. Madison (1803) Miranda v. Arizona (1966) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #72 March 25, 2004 Quote News flash.......Popular support IS how this country is run. The most votes win. And right or wrong have nothing to do with it. And in the end it won't matter what is right or wrong according to you but rather if it is legal. um... News Flash: We can vote for anything we want, but if its unconstitutional, it still isn't legal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #73 March 25, 2004 QuoteOur founding fathers thought it was valid. No, they did not put "under god" in the pledge - unless you thought some 1950's senators count as founding fathers. You are correct. My implication was that god was important and valid to our forefathers as referenced in the declaration of independence. That is why I listed the action of it in the pledge separately. QuoteOur leaders thought slavery, prohibition, segregation and sexism were all valid too. They turned out to be wrong. So that makes everything else they have and will do wrong? NOT Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NightJumper 0 #74 March 25, 2004 QuoteNews flash.......Popular support IS how this country is run. The most votes win. And right or wrong have nothing to do with it. And in the end it won't matter what is right or wrong according to you but rather if it is legal. um... News Flash: We can vote for anything we want, but if its unconstitutional, it still isn't legal. I agree and if you look again (see bold above) that is what I said. And by the way, remember that the contitution has and can be changed! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #75 March 25, 2004 Quote Do the kids really understand what it all means anyways? Probably not, which is why it's a such a big deal. In theory, children can believe whatever they want, but when a reference to God is formally endorsed and recited each morning in school, it most definitely influences them. This is EXACTLY the kind of thing the separation of church and state is supposed to protect us from. Of course, those that most vehemently oppose restoring the pledge to its original form probably recognize this. They desperately want the kids indoctrinated before they are truly capable of thinking for themselves. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
