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fpritchett64

Shouldn't we Know more about our Gear?

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That statement scares the living daylights out of me, and I think its' because I don't understand it. Do you really mean that the cutaway handle on your student rig was a dummy and would not cut your main away?



That's my understanding, that is does nothing but we're taught in our EP's to pull it in order because when we get off the student rigs that's how a regular rig is setup. Stupid? I don't think so, just look at the fatality in the incident thread possibly caused by going straight for the silver. When I get off this rig, I will pull the handles in order everytime, I couldn't imagine the complications if I spent all my student jumps thinking "go straight for silver, straight for silver", I might end up dead like the fatality mentioned.
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It was directed at you. Because you kept referring to your cutaway handle as a "dummy". It is not a "dummy" .

I promise, when you pull your cutaway handle, something will happen.



I was told it does nothing but it placed there to reinforce good habits in EP's because once I'm off the student rig it WILL cutaway.
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I'm wondering if its an SOS that they put a dummy cutaway handle on?



I would say that's exactly the case, it's what the CI/DZO told me.



Being one that had to transition from a main ripcord (outboard-chest) and SOS to an "experienced" rig, I understand why they would do this. However I am very concerned about the actual emergency on this type of system where the student worries about pulling a dummy handle and wastes time getting to that SOS to save his life...

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Com'on... tell us how you really feel. ;)

It is so sad to see someone who has excelled at one side of the sport and neglected the basics... Saw a 4 way miss a load because one of the jumpers (1000+ jumps) could not find a packer and hadn't packed since getting signed off for his A.

Besides, most packers do ONE thing... PACK.
You CAN'T rely on them to untwist your brake lines, notice the gradual freying of your lines due to a grommet spur, or even see that you've got a gear problem. And someplaces I understand that they require you to prep your gear FOR packing... [:/]

Ah, but you take your rig to a rigger ever 120... he'll check it... really, sure he checks the main (some do, some don't) and besides there is alot on a main that can be good now and fail in use in less than 4* months. (*even more so in 6... )

Once in a while, sure. Team practice day, fine. But when the sh!t hits the fan, its you and the rig falling at 120, not the rigger and not the packer...

Personally, I would like to see "no packer for personal gear until C licensed"...:o but that's just me...

JW

:)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Being one that had to transition from a main ripcord (outboard-chest) and SOS to an "experienced" rig, I understand why they would do this. However I am very concerned about the actual emergency on this type of system where the student worries about pulling a dummy handle and wastes time getting to that SOS to save his life...



Indeed, but you can't have the best of both worlds... both have there pro's and con's.

I guess no teaching method is perfect?

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Understanding how to pack well enough to understand your equipment is really kind of different than packing so you can get a regular inspection of the current state of said equipment. You could actually never jump your own pack job but still be inspecting the main on every jump before you get a packer to do it. Arguably an inspection that is separate from the pack job could be more detailed because it has only a single focus, the inspection.

I kind of like the analogy to that of a private pilot. To get your license you must demonstrate that you understand the aircraft systems very well, but you aren't actually allowed to play with them as a pilot.

I would be happy to be tested in detail about my equipment, not once but often. I might not always know the answer but that would be the point of a detailed question, to learn. However, I wouldn't be happy to always pack my rig, I do want to jump some!

Simon

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I would be happy to be tested in detail about my equipment, not once but often. I might not always know the answer but that would be the point of a detailed question, to learn. However, I wouldn't be happy to always pack my rig, I do want to jump some!

Simon



In order to jump, your rig has to be packed, if you're profficient at packing, you can pack your rig as fast or maybe faster than a packer can get to it. Unless you have 2 rigs. Do you have 2 rigs?

Please dont misunderstand me, I am a packer at my dz and love having people to pack for, it helps me pay for my jumps, however I feel that just because you were checked off on packing to get your "A" doesn't necessarily mean that you will always know how to pack. If you've had enough practice packing, you shouldn't have any trouble making loads.;)

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Just curious, one other thing....how many of you...lets say, below 100 jumps who own a rig just take your rig home after a weekend at the dz, store it in your gear back and throw it to the side until the next weekend?

I feel that everyone is making excuses as to why they don't pack or don't know how to pack such as, I want to jump more, my canopy is too slippery, etc...again, this is why I don't place blame on instructors..I just feel that not enough of us are taking an interest in the gear that saves our lives on every jump, and I'm just scared that this may prove dangerous to someone at some point if it hasn't already proven dangerous. If we don't know our gear, how can we honestly know what to expect out of it?

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I have enough room in my basement to lay it out and play with getting it in the bag, which continues to require patience. It is cool, finished and got music, and I am not in a rush to catch a load. It is at home that I actually inspect it because it keeps me close to the sport even when away.

I think I know my gear pretty well, more to know for sure but I am interested in it. Not only because my life depends on it but it is full of gadgets and after all, it is gear! Same reason I wax my own skis, I get to drool about skiing.

What I am saying is there isn't a direct relationship between not packing and not knowing your gear. Just this week I released the 3 rings to massage them, replaced some rubber bands...which I now think I put on ones too big and plan on switching them out. I inspected the kill chord for shrinkage and the PC pouch for elasticity. Then on my repack I asked my rigger to throw a second set of eyes over it.

If you see someone picking up a rig from a packer, don't assume they know nothing about their gear.

What about if the time my packer is putting my main back in is spent preparing for a coach exam, or in the EP harness, investing in safety and knowledge? Like I said, not packing is not an indication of being uninterested in understanding.

2 rigs? Ha, I wish. :-) Got a spare to lend?

Simon

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If you choose to remain illiterate about (_______ placeholder for many skydiving topics), your dangerous to yourself and the sport.



fixed it for all those illiterate wannabees
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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In Finland, it is part of the training to pass a test where you prove your ability to pack and that you have the basic knowledge of the gear you use.

It is generally not allowed for students to use packers. Stundents will pack their own basically from jump no.1 (under supervision ofcourse)

I wouldnt want to underestimate the USPA training, however I have taken wuffo friends from Finland to US to make their FJC and I must say I was suprised how little they knew of their gear and that neither of them had not even learned how to pack after 40 jumps.

Maby it wouldnt be a bad idea to add some basic education on gear before handing out the A licence ?

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When people say they sit in the packing area and watch people pack, do any of the packers get irritated by that?



I'm sure that there are times when individual packers are having bad days (riggers too) and don't want to be bothered. But rarely would they have a problem with you quetly watching. If you see something you don't understand, you might ask then or maybe wait and ask later (or a rigger) about what you saw.

Also, ask them when they are not busy if it would be OK to watch and discuss. Usually they don't bite.

JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I wouldnt want to underestimate the USPA training, however I have taken wuffo friends from Finland to US to make their FJC and I must say I was suprised how little they knew of their gear and that neither of them had not even learned how to pack after 40 jumps.



Did they have their A license at this time? If so they should at least know how to pack. I know that to get your A license it is required that you pack and jump your own pack job.

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I have enough room in my basement to lay it out and play with getting it in the bag, which continues to require patience. It is cool, finished and got music, and I am not in a rush to catch a load. It is at home that I actually inspect it because it keeps me close to the sport even when away.


Response: When you're done playing with it and trying to get it in the bag. Do you trust the packjob and jump it? Are you confident with your own packjobs?

What I am saying is there isn't a direct relationship between not packing and not knowing your gear. Just this week I released the 3 rings to massage them, replaced some rubber bands...which I now think I put on ones too big and plan on switching them out. I inspected the kill chord for shrinkage and the PC pouch for elasticity. Then on my repack I asked my rigger to throw a second set of eyes over it.



Response: About the lack of a direct relationship between not packing and not knowing your gear. If you don't pack your own rig, or if you don't know how to pack, is it possible that you wont know anything about the gear and how it functions?

Now, if you do pack your own rig, or if you know how to pack, and I don't just mean...I was checked off for my "A," is it possible that you wont know anything about your gear and how it functions.

I think knowing how to pack and being profficient at it is a good starting point for knowing about your gear and what to look for while inspecting it.

IF you hardly ever pack, and aren't profficient at it, when you actually have to pack for yourself because nobody else is around, what are the chances of you misrouting that bridle and causing a PCIT, what are the chances that you'll forget to cock your PC, or forget to set your slider?

Can you give a proper gear check, while checking your own gear and doing a pin check, do you know exactly what you're looking at, not just the pin, but the sight hole and the routing of that bridle? Or, do you just trust that your packer did it right again this time? When giving someone else a gear check, do you do the same thing, or just trust that they got it right?

I'm not directing this at you, because you may know everything you "need" to know to stay alive, but I'm sure there are some people that had the same mindset that packing is not directly related to knowing your gear that aren't alive today because they had to pack their rig and weren't profficient enough to get it right, or didn't know enough about their gear to spot something wrong, or didn't know enough about gear to spot something wrong with someone elses gear.

If your profile is correct, you've been in the sport for 11 years and still have trouble getting a canopy into a bag. Is this information correct?


If you see someone picking up a rig from a packer, don't assume they know nothing about their gear.


Respnonse: I never assume that, I usually hope it's an AFF instructor, or someone doing video, or a coach, or maybe someone training on a team...someone that actually is too busy to pack their own rig, but already knows everything that is needed to know about it and if need be, someone that could do just as good of a packjob as myself. If it's, none of the above, I'd hope they at least have 100 jumps and packed on all of their jumps up to 100.

What about if the time my packer is putting my main back in is spent preparing for a coach exam, or in the EP harness, investing in safety and knowledge? Like I said, not packing is not an indication of being uninterested in understanding.


Response: Pack your rig before the coach exam, or after the EP harness. Part of safety and knowledge is being profficient at packing your rig, it's part of skydiving.

2 rigs? Ha, I wish. :-) Got a spare to lend?

Simon

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I'm one of those people who wants to know how everything works.

When I was going through AFF I wanted to know how everything worked. I downloaded all the container and canopy manuals I could find to get better insight on how everything worked.

When I got my own gear and was learning how to pack I would again read every manual and watch every video I could find on the subject.

I'd practice packing at home to make sure I could do it well enough. I also took apart the rig (except for the reserve) and looked over everything. I read manuals on how to pack a reserve even though I knew I wouldn't be doing that anytime soon.

After all that I can say that I feel much more confident with my gear. By knowing how everything works together I also feel much better about emergency procedures and what to do in certain situations. Knowing why we do certain things is a great comfort to me.
Muff Brother #4026
Loco Zapatos Rodriguez
SCR #14793

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I wouldnt want to underestimate the USPA training, however I have taken wuffo friends from Finland to US to make their FJC and I must say I was suprised how little they knew of their gear and that neither of them had not even learned how to pack after 40 jumps.



Did they have their A license at this time? If so they should at least know how to pack. I know that to get your A license it is required that you pack and jump your own pack job.



I taught a packing class this winter. Most of the people passed, some did not.

However, one of the ones who did pass was at the dropzone yesterday, and I had my rig unpacked and told him to pack it to see if he remembered.

Not Even Close! Packing once for your "A" Does NOT mean you will remember how to pack, even a few months later
BASE 1384

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Not Even Close! Packing once for your "A" Does NOT mean you will remember how to pack, even a few months later



I agree!!!! As a packer, I started refusing to pack for newer jumpers with their own gear on the last jump of the day... I told them to go home and do it themselves, or I'd happily stay and keep an eye on them and give them pointers on how to do it. A couple just had another packer pack, but some actually did what I told them too... all of them took me up on my offer to help... and they pack for themselves most of the time now.

One guy has a slippery as greased shit Spectre 230, very few jumps on it. I admit, even as a very adept packer, I hated packing that fucker. I can do it, but only after it and I had come to an understanding ;) I have spent more than one Friday night in the FBO with him, helping him, giving him pointers. He's still not a proficient packer, but when he shows up at the DZ 9 times out of 10 he had it packed himself. He still doesn't jump his own pack jobs, always asks me to open it and give him feedback, and they typically look like they'd open fine... he just needs a little confidence in himself.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I was surprsed at how many people pack enough to get it signed off on the A license.

I answered the dz phone one early winter day and the jumper was from a near by dz that closes for the winter. He wanted to know if we had packers available because if not, he could only jump twice because he only has two rigs. He had about 50 jumps and an A license. Funny thing is that we do not have packers at our dz. Everyone would rather spend their money on jumping that packing. I told him that we would have people available to help him pack.

He showed up a few times and got him packing (no small feat considering he had newer slippier snot canopies).

In the middle of winter, we went to a helicopter boogie and after one of his jumps he was packing. A rigger from his home dz asked him, "You must be jumping at Chip this winter?" He responded with "Yeah I am. Why?". The rigger's comment was "Because you're packing".

I was glad we could help! It's never to late to learn to pack. And no canopy is ever to new to learn how to pack no matter how many jumps you have.

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Response: When you're done playing with it and trying to get it in the bag. Do you trust the packjob and jump it? Are you confident with your own packjobs?



I sure do! Haven't had one let me down...yet.



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Response: About the lack of a direct relationship between not packing and not knowing your gear. If you don't pack your own rig, or if you don't know how to pack, is it possible that you wont know anything about the gear and how it functions?



I can see we won't actually get to agree about what I am trying to say. Not packing your own rig EVERY time does not mean you don't understand your equipment, which I think is what your original question stated.


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If your profile is correct, you've been in the sport for 11 years and still have trouble getting a canopy into a bag. Is this information correct?



Aye aye. I first packed in Houston, nice and humid. Now I have my own, new ZP 210 in Denver, nice and DRY! I didn't say I couldn't get it in the bag, I said it takes me some time. Things changes sometimes you know and you have to change your plan of attack, that is part of the "you never stop learning".

I do agree that everyone should be able to pack and as you hinted on, jump it with confidence.

I wonder if there are other things that would influence someones attitude to this.

You do it your way and I will do it mine, no worries.

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I started refusing to pack for newer jumpers with their own gear on the last jump of the day.



karenmeal was the DZ packer at the time and she did that to me when I was a noob >:(... and I love her for it. :D;) I had a much more compliant Spectre 230 at the time (it had 450 jumps on it so it was much more broken in). But I haaaated packing and was slow at it and it frustrated me, and she made me learn, and practice till I got it. And I'm glad she did - it meant I did a lot more packing for myself than I probably would have, and that I know how to do it... I can be lazy now and not pack for a while and I'll still remember how to do it without any trouble. But if I'd gone for even a couple weeks in those early days without packing I would have forgotten everything I learned in my packing class. That early drilling is key till you get it down.

Paying a packer should be a choice, not a necessity.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I taught a packing class this winter. Most of the people passed, some did not.

However, one of the ones who did pass was at the dropzone yesterday, and I had my rig unpacked and told him to pack it to see if he remembered.

Not Even Close! Packing once for your "A" Does NOT mean you will remember how to pack, even a few months later



Exactly. Packing for your self for the same "40 jumps" I referred to earlier, will most likely help you remember how to pack your main + plus some other important issues...

Sure DZ´s will get less money out of the students because it takes about 2 hours for them to pack after the first jump and they might not have the juice left in them to do more jumps on that day.. I definetly hope this isnt the reason for not making students pack their own... I sure someone can tell me a valid reason ? :)

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However I am very concerned about the actual emergency on this type of system where the student worries about pulling a dummy handle and wastes time getting to that SOS to save his life...



I think that the dummy handle is a good idea. A student should be pulling high enough to have enough time to execute a full EP and having them do it as though they are on standard sport gear trains them properly from the start. The SOS still prevents them from pulling the handles in the wrong order.... which is somthing a student seems more likely to do than find themselves so low under a mal that the extra 2 seconds to pull the dummy handle matters.
Owned by Remi #?

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Maybe I have a unique case, I don't know..

I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...


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We were all 'new' jumpers at one point...so I don't understand the I'm Unique argument. :ph34r:


Maybe I'm TOO old school, but I always figured that the packing of the parachute WAS a part of the Skydiving expierence, as you got to be a better jumper ya kinda got to be a better parachute packer too.

Coming up on 3400 jumps and I've NOT packed for myself 3 times...

1st static line jump. ~didn't pack it for obvious reasons.

1st BASE jump. ~because I didn't KNOW any better 25 years ago.

& the 3rd and LAST time someone will EVER pack for me~:S>:(
The 3rd jump of the afternoon at a rock concert demo last year, no time logistically to pack the flags, pyro AND parachutes ...so an actual rigger packed them, he didn't uncollapse my slider causing the canopy to open hard enough to break the left riser set. Had to land under a reserve with a flag below me into a tight LZ...
*a UNIQUE set of circumstances but no one to 'blame' but myself.

Maybe it's kinda like a lotta things these days in that people seem to want to 'cherry pick' the easy and fast way.
I prefer knowing the exact condition of my gear, knowing what's on my pack and how I packed it.

Learning how to pack a brand new canopy isn't 'hard', it's just frustrating and time consuming...but so are a lot of things worth doing.
;)











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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A rigger packed you a collapsed slider?!?!?! JesusB|



http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2915781#2915781


Yup...and 'Jesus' wasn't quite what I was thinking at the time! :ph34r:;)

Again...I can't 'blame' someone else for my problem, I broke the one hard and fast rule I've always had regarding demonstration jumping, to personally inspect & carefully pack ALL the equipment to be used on the jump.

Can't even tell ya the number of times I've un-packed and then re-packed a rig or flag someone else used & packed up previously...it's one of the things I've always done and am 'known for'.

If another situation like that were ever to arise, I'll just scratch.
Like I said, I don't like not knowing 'exactly' what's on my back, and can't understand the guys not willing or able to commit themselves to that part of the sport.

I certainly understand the need a worker bee. . . ie. Tandem, AFF, Camera jumper has to utilize a packer.

But not a low timer...it's just laziness IMHO.:):S


Cheap lesson I guess, could have been worse..It'll NEVER happen again! :):$;)










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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>Gear knowledge is important, sweating my ass off is not.

Actually, both are - and one sort of leads to the other. Not to say one should never use a packer, but it is important to be both familiar and current on packing and gear inspection/maintenance - even if it's hot out.

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