Shouldn't we Know more about our Gear?

[fpritchett64 0]

This may kinda be a grey area, so moderators, if you feel this should be in gear and rigging, please feel free to move this thread there, but I would like to keep this more so concentrated on the safety aspect of the sport.

I know that I am a somewhat of a newbie, although I have been around skydiving since I was 13 and I probably have an advantage over most newbies, I'm still concerned and would like to know what could we do more or different to help educate our fellow newbies about their gear that they put on their backs.

I'm really concerned at the number of people I've heard of just this week speak about not knowing exactly how their gear works, what the cutaway handle does, what the reserve handle does, what is an RSL, when should it be disconnected, etc. One converning comment that I heard in the incidents forum went something along the lines of, I don't know what my cutaway handle and reserve handle does, I just know that I pull one, then the other in the right order and I'm saved from certain death.

How many people early in their skydiving career start having a packer pack for them before they're even proefficient at packing for themselves?

How many of us newbies actually know how to give a proper gear check to other jumpers, let alone ourselves?

What more can be done to ensure that we're fully aware of our gear and how it works so we're more prone to spot something wrong?

I am by no means blaming anyone for this, especially instructors, because I am very confident that all of this is covered in the FJC and on every training dive thereafter, but I just worry that we as newbies don't show enough interest in our gear that saves our lives on every jump.

One suggestion that I might be able to make that may help out, and please give your opinions on this as well, but it has to do with having someone else pack for you at an early level. Should we be allowing people with low jump numbers pay for a packer? Would this be a start, what else could we do?

[Moose123 0]

I am in no way a seasoned skydiver but I feel I know alot about gear. From the moment I put one on I started playing with it, even now sometimes when I pack at my house I cut away my main just to get some feel for it and how it works even though all I am doing is pulling a cord I have to put it back together . I've seen a number of students when you ask them what an RSL is they get a dumb look on their face. I think student should have to take apart a rig and put it back together at least once just to see how the pieces fit together and hopefully get an understanding how it works.

[Halfpastniner 0]

You are absolutely right. As a packer, I see it all the time. People hand you a rig, you give it back and they can go jump again.

They couldnt care less how it is packed or works as long as it DOES.

Unless of course they have a hard opening, or weren't packed in time for a load. Then I get to hear all about it.

Our sport is different from most in that we like to jump out of in-flight aircraft.

It isnt just some magic backpack. Learn how it works.

BASE 1384

[MagicGuy 0]

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Unless of course they have a hard opening, or weren't packed in time for a load. Then I get to hear all about it.

Don't you LOVE that?

I know for me, I went into my FJC having previously done a ton of research on gear. I knew what all of the handles did, I knew what a 3 ring system was and how it worked, and I knew what an RSL is.

I do agree that there are some people out there who should care more about how things work. You mentioned taking apart a rig and putting it back together. I know that to get my A License I had to cutaway the main while it was unpacked and correctly re-assemble it. There's really not much more (practically) that you can do. I mean, you can't really have a newbie start screwing around with a reserve, especially if it involved taking one off and re-assembling.

I don't think that any skydiver should be in the air if 1.) They can't pack their parachute. Knowing how to pack educates you (well, kind of) at how the parachute opens and works. 2.) If they don't know how their handles work (what the hell? I can't believe that anyone wouldn't know this, but OK), and 3.) Knowing how to do gear checks, both for themselves and other skydivers. I know personally, I am looking at everyone's gear that I am on the plane with and have caught things many times (usually something like a pilot chute hanging out more than I would be comfortable with).

The RSL debate is weird. At our DZ, the AFF instructors as well as the DZ manager and BOD have decided not to go into too much detail about the RSL in the FJC. They tell them what it is, but basically that's as far as it goes. They've found that too much discussion about it just overwhelms students, so they decided to discuss it further later on in their progression.

I think the biggest reason they don't really discuss it too much is because they don't want students RELYING on it. It is not failproof, and there are skydivers out there (not at my DZ) who have gone in because they cutaway and expected the RSL to deploy their reserve.

Anyways, I don't think you can ever know too much about your gear. However, I do think that it is mainly up to the instructors to make sure that the student they are graduating knows what is on their back and more importantly, how and why it works.

[iluvtofly 0]

When I first started jumping and didn't have the first clue about packing or anything I would sit in the packing area and watch people. Whenever I saw something that I wasn't sure what it was or why they were doing what they were doing I would ask a question. I never once ran into someone who wasn't willing to educate me.

When I got my own gear last summer I helped put it together step-by-step (with the exception of packing the reserve). I put the main on the slinks, I helped with the initial inspection of my main, and I put it all together (with a rigger helping me of course).

I think the fact that I spent much of last summer packing helped me alot. I got to see different rigs and canopies.

I know that I still have alot to learn but I think alot of it has to do with people not caring how the stuff works so long as it works. I think my own personal interest and eagerness to learn everything I can about this sport helped me greatly.

[mynamebedan 0]

what is even scarier is when these same type of people start getting into base....

[Chubba 0]

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One converning comment that I heard in the incidents forum went something along the lines of, I don't know what my cutaway handle and reserve handle does, I just know that I pull one, then the other in the right order and I'm saved from certain death.

I assume that's directed at me.

I got a few PM's in regards to that and apparently not being explained the mechanics of the EP's is pretty standard as not to overload the student.

I know at AFF 7 now I should be enquiring about it but I'm glad I wasn't expected to know anything about it on my FJC, just that I have handles I pull and proceedures if something goes wrong.

Just FYI I was explained in my FJC what a cutaway handle does and what the reserve handle does "on a sports rig" and how an RSL works. I was just confused as to how my student rig worked considering the cutaway was a dummy.

[derrickiv 0]

As a low number jumper, I obviously do not have the experience that all of you have, but I would like to make one comment on packing your own parachute.

I don't think it's necessary to pack your own parachute as a new jumper, I think it's necessary to know HOW to pack a parachute as a new jumper.

Maybe I have a unique case, I don't know.. but I've got a relatively new canopy that is very difficult for me to pack, so instead of wasting time packing it, I choose to pay $6 to have it packed for me when I'm trying to get a lot of jumps in. I've demonstrated to coaches, AFF-Is and myself that I can pack a parachute, I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

[D22369 0]

to the title of the post : YES

I dont know how many times I have come across a jumper who had to hook up their main canopy who had no idea how to do it....
to me it is amazing that anyone wouldnt want to know the why and how things work that they use.

When teaching a first jump course I have to cram a lot of knowledge into someone who has no idea of ... well... anything.. so I do keep it to the "what they need to know" I dont go into detail of the mechanics of the system, or how to hook them up, I teach how to recognise a working canopy and what to do when its not usable, the rsl and aad we do cover a bit more, but only to show them they have a back up device.

when and if they return, they get more information on the whys and how things work, and how to spot problems with the gear, how to unhook and hook it up, and how to maintain it. If you hand them too much info, much will not be retained, so you keep it to the need to know and add more later

last year I came across a relatively new jumper 100ish jumps, who had their rsl come unhooked - probably draggin the rig while packing, and they had no idea how to hook it up.... I wasnt surprised much... this mentality is becoming quite common.

I have never and will never sign anyone off for their A license who cannot explain what each component of their rig does and demonstate how it works and pack without assistance then jump the packjob....

you dont, but I do blame the instructors, it is their job to make sure the person has full gear knowledge before handing them an A license... too many are dropping the fucking ball..



Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[popsjumper 2]

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...
I have never and will never sign anyone off for their A license who cannot explain what each component of their rig does and demonstate how it works and pack without assistance then jump the packjob....

you dont, but I do blame the instructors, it is their job to make sure the person has full gear knowledge before handing them an A license... too many are dropping the fucking ball..

Bingo! Damn! This is one of my MAJOR pet peeves...freakin' instructors who don't do their job.

FJC = Basics.
It's up to you instructors to build on that as the students move along in their progression. By A-license, they should KNOW it and be able to PERFORM it without coaching/teaching.

The peeve: Instructors who sign off on progression cards knowing full well that the student does not "get it".

The sign-off is intended to be a quiz/check on their knowledge...not a teaching session. You bozos who sit down with a student and teach them and then immediately sign-off are doing a MAJOR disservice to the student and to the skydiving industry.

You think students "get it" after your teaching session? Ha! Why do you think questions arise like the OP has put forth? Don't you realize that you are only raising dummies and not skydivers?

You want to help promote knowledge and safety? Here's what you do:
Teach the students and have them wait on sign-off until they can prove that they know and can perform... without coaching/teaching. Get tough. The "close enough" attitude is not the way to go.

D22369 - you have it right. Keep it up and do everything you can to promote your convictions.


One other thing:
You DZOs out there. YOU can fix this if you have the balls to do it. YOU have control over this. YOU can tell your instructors what to do and how to do it...if you get off your lazy ass and just do it. YOU can put a stop to that "close enough" attitude.


OK...rant over...I don't feel any better but at least I let you know how I think about it.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[virgin-burner 1]

the more i read, the happier i am i did my aff and so on in switzerland. heck, on my first aff-jump, i already jumped my very own packjob! to get through aff i had to do a packing-test. they completely messed up my canopy and left me with a ball of shit right there in the packing-area.. prolly took me a good 45 minutes to get the mess undone!

another thing i find hard to understand. here we DONT do gear checks, on each other. of course, if you'd see some bridle flapping around in the plane you'd tell the person. but otherwise its up to you to make sure your stuff is where it should be!

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[RandomLemming 0]

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Just FYI I was explained in my FJC what a cutaway handle does and what the reserve handle does "on a sports rig" and how an RSL works. I was just confused as to how my student rig worked considering the cutaway was a dummy.

That statement scares the living daylights out of me, and I think its' because I don't understand it. Do you really mean that the cutaway handle on your student rig was a dummy and would not cut your main away? Or are you maybe not talking about your student rig but the drills harness that you wore on the ground?

I can understand a dummy ripcord for your main if you're on static line, but not a dummy cutaway handle. What was your procedure if you had a malfunction on your AFF jumps?

[fpritchett64 0]

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As a low number jumper, I obviously do not have the experience that all of you have, but I would like to make one comment on packing your own parachute.

I don't think it's necessary to pack your own parachute as a new jumper, I think it's necessary to know HOW to pack a parachute as a new jumper.

Maybe I have a unique case, I don't know.. but I've got a relatively new canopy that is very difficult for me to pack, so instead of wasting time packing it, I choose to pay $6 to have it packed for me when I'm trying to get a lot of jumps in. I've demonstrated to coaches, AFF-Is and myself that I can pack a parachute, I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

How many times have you demonstrated that you know how to pack? How many times have you packed any parachute since then?

Edited to add: How many jumps are you trying to get in once you get home in the evening? If you are proefficient enough with your packing, you will have developed a method to get even the slipperiest of canopies into a d-bag. What do you do with you rig once you get home, stuff it into a gear back and into the closet until the next weekend? I guess this is why I don't blame instructors, because I trust that they're teaching the basics of what need to be known at that level, but it's up to the student to take the iniative to learn more.

If you were proefficient enough at packing, you should be able to get that rig packed almost as fast as that packer, you can't jump it until it's packed again anyway..right?

I passed my final exam in Spanish II in highschool, never messed with Spanish again after that. Do I still know all that Spanish I learned? I can count to 10 and say, "May I go to the bathroom." Ask me how thats relevant to your story

[wmw999 2,116]

You're entirely right. And yes, I think that packing one's own gear really, really helps to learn about it. Why it matters that the brake lines look like crap.

Folks, your packer isn't going to care nearly as much about worn or twisted brake lines as you are. Or lots and lots of other things. Not that he doesn't care, but it's your ass, not his, under it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Baksteen 84]

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I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

well, allowed.. I mean, it's your money.
But for ten packjobs you can make several jumps, yes?

And what if you go to a small DZ and noone is going to pack for you cause everyone is too busy jumping?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[L.O. 0]

Not knowing your gear is dangerous. If you choose to remain illiterate about your gear, your dangerous to yourself and the sport. I am not asking for a lot, just the basics. If you are unwilling to gain at least a small base of knowledge about the gear that is saving your life, then you don't deserve to be in the sport. That is the way it is at my DZ and if you show up, you better at least have a clue.

If your a student thats one thing but a regular jumper no excuses

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[Halfpastniner 0]

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One converning comment that I heard in the incidents forum went something along the lines of, I don't know what my cutaway handle and reserve handle does, I just know that I pull one, then the other in the right order and I'm saved from certain death.

I assume that's directed at me.

I got a few PM's in regards to that and apparently not being explained the mechanics of the EP's is pretty standard as not to overload the student.

I know at AFF 7 now I should be enquiring about it but I'm glad I wasn't expected to know anything about it on my FJC, just that I have handles I pull and proceedures if something goes wrong.

Just FYI I was explained in my FJC what a cutaway handle does and what the reserve handle does "on a sports rig" and how an RSL works. I was just confused as to how my student rig worked considering the cutaway was a dummy.

It was directed at you. Because you kept referring to your cutaway handle as a "dummy". It is not a "dummy" .

I promise, when you pull your cutaway handle, something will happen.

BASE 1384

[wildfan75 1]

I'm wondering if its an SOS that they put a dummy cutaway handle on?

Before I had my A license I knew how to put a main on risers on to a harness (including checking line continuity, not just putting the risers through the 3 rings). I had watched a reserve get repacked and understood how that worked. I knew exactly how an RSL worked. I owe this to all my the instructors and experienced jumpers at my dz taking the time on bad weather days to go over things. I got my S/L-I rating last weekend, and I guarentee that I will be paying forward this time and information. While I think it takes instructors to offer their time and be approachable in order for newer jumpers to learn this, it also take a little effort on the students part. I've seen a few "young" jumpers at our dz, walk in, make their two jumps and as soon as they are done packing, head out the door. One of these jumpers misrouted his bridal on the first jump of his new to him rig and ended up with a reserve ride after a pilot chute in tow. Students have to be willing to come on bad weather days, or spend some time after sunset. The stuff you learn on the ground is just as valueable as the stuff you learn in the air. I knew how to do the afore mentioned things not only because I spent many bad weather weekend days at the dz, but also because my instructors encouraged me to do so and made themselves and their time available. If I wasn't encouraged to come out on bad weather days, I probably wouldn't have. Its a two way street that instructors set the tone for.

[maestrabella67 0]

As a newbie who hasn't even been able to make her category A jump in AFF yet due to crappy weather, I've been reading the forums, and I also read the thread about the cutaway handle being a "dummy".

I've been reading THIS thread with interest, and as a scuba diver who takes very good care of my gear, knows it well, sets it up, dives with it, tears it down, cares for it, etc., I see myself transferring that concept to my skydiving gear when I finally get my own.

I can't imagine participating in an activity like scuba or skydiving and NOT taking care of my own stuff. I've had part of a packing lesson, and all I can say is that when I become proficient at it, I will be packing my own rig (except reserve, obviously) even if it takes me a long time to do it. I was diving in Mexico last month on a boat where the divemaster sets up each person's scuba unit... I was not happy about that!

I went through FJC/ground school at my dz last weekend, and I am happy to report that this particular place IS doing everything the way it should be done. I KNOW what the RSL is, when it should be disconnected, and not to rely on it. I KNOW what the handles do, I had to wear the rig and practice practice practice. I KNOW the parts of a parachute, I UNDERSTAND how they work, I have all the knowledge pounded into me (heck, we were there for 8 hours!!) now I just have to get up into the sky and use it.

We were also taught about gear checks... although maybe my dz is a bit different in that it's smaller, homier than perhaps a big dz, in the two tandems that I've done, my TI checked the spotter's gear and vice versa just before door. Yes, even though ultimately I will be responsible for doing a thorough gear check on the ground before putting the rig on, jumpers at my dz still look out for each other (but I can't rely on THEM).

I think that knowing your gear intimately and taking care of it yourself is one way to become a safe skydiver. Of course us newbies will need lots of help at the beginning, but when we're finally capable of doing it on our own, it's up to US. The idea of getting an A license, purchasing my own rig, then letting somebody else always take care of it makes me extremely uncomfortable.

Long-winded, sorry, just the thoughts of an anxious newbie.

[ladyhawke 0]

I'm not against a low number jumper paying for a packer if they want to. However, I firmly believe in every skydiver knowing about their gear!

I would suggest and highly recommend every skydiver getting together with a rigger and going over everything involved! One on one and ask questions if you don't understand.

A routine of practicing your EP's, checking your handles and knowing what to expect from your gear will give you added confidence if you have to save your life!!!

"It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities." - A. Dumbledore

[Gato 0]

Not to advertise it, but there is a ton of good information in the "Packing Made Simple" DVD that recently came out.

I got a copy of it when it was first released, and I have to say that the CGI sequences explaining the 3-ring, RSL, and components of the main are really cool. There's even a section on getting to know your reserve, which I found very informative.

I had my packing course last november, and honestly, I think I'll be ok with jumping my own packjob - in fact, I'd almost rather pack for myself, even though we have good packers. There is something powerful in the idea of being totally responsible for the outcome.

This is the same feeling I got when I realized the quality of my jump and landing has little to do with what instructor I have - a good feeling to have. A LOT of my anxiety went away when I started pulling for myself (instead of the static line opening for me.)

T.I.N.S.

[fasted3 0]

I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

[Orange1 0]

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As a low number jumper, I obviously do not have the experience that all of you have, but I would like to make one comment on packing your own parachute.

I don't think it's necessary to pack your own parachute as a new jumper, I think it's necessary to know HOW to pack a parachute as a new jumper.

Maybe I have a unique case, I don't know.. but I've got a relatively new canopy that is very difficult for me to pack, so instead of wasting time packing it, I choose to pay $6 to have it packed for me when I'm trying to get a lot of jumps in. I've demonstrated to coaches, AFF-Is and myself that I can pack a parachute, I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

Not so unique, I think something similar happens to low timers who rent gear - never sure who will jump it next so (if they aren't packers) it gets packed by a packer.

The problem is this: you never practise packing, so you never get to do it fast. Then you start getting in on dives with other guys and you want to make the next load with them and you don't have 45 mins to waste packing so you get a packer to pack it... and so it goes on, till 6 months later you realise you can't remember how to pack it properly. I would suggest that you take some time out in the evenings to pack your parachute a couple of times and at least get the practise in that way.

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[peregrinerose 0]

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As a low number jumper, I obviously do not have the experience that all of you have, but I would like to make one comment on packing your own parachute.

I don't think it's necessary to pack your own parachute as a new jumper, I think it's necessary to know HOW to pack a parachute as a new jumper.

Maybe I have a unique case, I don't know.. but I've got a relatively new canopy that is very difficult for me to pack, so instead of wasting time packing it, I choose to pay $6 to have it packed for me when I'm trying to get a lot of jumps in. I've demonstrated to coaches, AFF-Is and myself that I can pack a parachute, I don't think that just because i'm a new jumper that I shouldn't be allowed to take advantage of the convenience service a packer provides...

Why does every person in skydiving think they are 'special' or 'different' or have some extenuating circumstance that they can't pack, or can't learn their own gear? Yeesh.

Hate to break your bubble, but you're not special, not remotely. You are going to struggle with packing like every other new jumper. If your canopy is fairly new... great! Learning to pack it will make you a better packer, able to handle just about any fabric that comes your way. But if you're too damn lazy to learn how to do it and just keep paying your packers, you'll never know your gear and never learn to pack.

Hang out with the packers, find one willing to work with you, watch you, give you pointers. Buy them beer in thanks, they'll like that. Your last jump of every day... pack that yourself. Then pack at least one time every day at home. It might take you two hours to start with, but the more you do it, the quicker it will get. Eventually you'll have a pack job in under 10 minutes (which is probably quicker than waiting for a packer to get to it!).

Whining about how special you are won't make you a better packer. Only initiative, determination, and true desire to know the gear that your safety in this sport depends on.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Chubba 0]

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That statement scares the living daylights out of me, and I think its' because I don't understand it. Do you really mean that the cutaway handle on your student rig was a dummy and would not cut your main away?

That's my understanding, that is does nothing but we're taught in our EP's to pull it in order because when we get off the student rigs that's how a regular rig is setup. Stupid? I don't think so, just look at the fatality in the incident thread possibly caused by going straight for the silver. When I get off this rig, I will pull the handles in order everytime, I couldn't imagine the complications if I spent all my student jumps thinking "go straight for silver, straight for silver", I might end up dead like the fatality mentioned.

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It was directed at you. Because you kept referring to your cutaway handle as a "dummy". It is not a "dummy" .

I promise, when you pull your cutaway handle, something will happen.

I was told it does nothing but it placed there to reinforce good habits in EP's because once I'm off the student rig it WILL cutaway.

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I'm wondering if its an SOS that they put a dummy cutaway handle on?

I would say that's exactly the case, it's what the CI/DZO told me.