Apex WLO toggles for skydiving

[jtnesbitt 0]

This thread has provided a lot of great information as to why you shouldn't use WLO toggles on a skyrig.

Just to add another though, it is possible for those toggles to release accidentally as it happened to me once. They weren't APEX, and i wont mention the brand, but they were line release toggles.

It all boils down to using the right tool for the right job.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[markovwgti 0]

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I don't know how accurate the rear riser landing statements you made are. I have about 100 rear riser landings on various canopies (135 - 288) in different situations and I have always walked backed no problem. It is a different type of flare and you need to know what you are doing to have it go off properly.

You're misunderstanding what he was saying. He's not talking about a standard rear riser landing, he's talking about a rear riser landing when there is no load on the tail from the steering lines, as if you cut them to clear a line over.

He mentions canopies between 240 and 303sq ft, so my guess is he's talking about BASE canopies, where you can throw the toggles in the event of a line over (the steering lines are not routed through the guide ring). This is the configuration the OP wants to use on his skydivign canopy so he can clear a line over without cutting away or using a hook knife.

The difference is that when you use your rears on an otherwise intact canopy, the steering line still hold the tail in place, and since the toggle is againt the guide ring, and the guide ring is attached to the riser, pulling down the riser also pulls down the toggle an equal amount, maintaining pressure on the tail, and keeping it in place.

When you throw the toggles, and the steering lines are not through the guide ring, there is nothing holding the tail in place. In level flight it may just casue a flutter, but when you pull the rears, you're only pulling the portion of the canopy from mid-chord to the D line attachmnet points. Everything aft of the D lines, like the tail, isn't supporting any weight or creating any lift nor aerodynamic braking, like when you flare with toggles or rears with attached steering lines.

Canopies properly configured for skydiving can be easily flared with the rear risers, provided the jumper practices up high, and becomes familair with the rear riser stall-point (it can be touchy).

As for the OP, he's seems hell-bent on using throw-over toggles on his skydiving main canopy, despite advice to the contrary from both riggers and BASE jumpers.

Not surprisingly, this jumper also claims the in the event of a line over when jumping with conventional toggles, his EP is to extract his hook knife and simply cut the offending line, so I suppose the situation with the BASE toggle set-up isn't all that surprising.

Thanks for explaining it furthermore...!

[Beatnik 2]

I understood it the first time of what you said. But I still don't agree with it completely nor have I found it accurate with my experiences.

Lift is created many ways and air deflection into a different air stream is just one way it is done. Using the tail is probably the most effective, since it can deflect air the cleanest and most direct. But pulling the rear risers down is still going to use Bernoulli's principle and also use wing circulation theory. If you can bleed off the forward speed and cause the deflection (e.g. using rear risers) regardless of if the tail has pressure or not you will be able to land. The parachute acts similar to a round canopy and the landing is not much different. Unless someone can tell me that you can land a round and prove it, I am not going to agree with the statement. I got what you said the first time and I can appreciate the explanation of the configuration that I was familiar with long before the post but I don't agree with its accuracy.

[skydiverkeith 1]

So even if a skilled, experienced pilot can land with rear risers when the control lines are cut, would the same be true for the average pilot after a lineover. Or would it be too dangerous, considering that, it may be dangerous to practice even with an intentional WLO release.

I'm so confused...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[markovwgti 0]

Go try it out....since you dont wanna take advice!! Let me know the outcome!

[skydiverkeith 1]

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Go try it out....since you dont wanna take advice!! Let me know the outcome!

You lost me. Could you be more clear?

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Halfpastniner 0]

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Go try it out....since you dont wanna take advice!! Let me know the outcome!

You lost me. Could you be more clear?

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

BASE 1384

[skydiverkeith 1]

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Go try it out....since you dont wanna take advice!! Let me know the outcome!

You lost me. Could you be more clear?

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

That's not helpful...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[markovwgti 0]

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Go try it out....since you dont wanna take advice!! Let me know the outcome!

You lost me. Could you be more clear?

Did you eat paint chips as a child?

paint chips are yummy...loved trying the red ones it tasted like watermelon!!!! Well atleast it did in my head!!! ;)

[davelepka 4]

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I have landed with no steering lines connected. Yes it does make a difference but you can still do it and you can do it safely if you know what you are doing. Being tall I have an advantage of pulling more down.

WTF are you talking about? Since when does being tall have nay effect on a rear riser landing? Even when you have the full effect of the C/D lines and steering lines, the control stroke of the rear riser before the stall is less than a foot (which is benig generous). The only jumper I know who lacks the reach to utilize the full control stroke of the rear risers is a guy with one arm.

Tall or short, when you disconnect the steering lines you are giving up a significant portion of flight surface in anything but full flight (and even then it's likey just to flutter in the breeze). The result is that you end flying what is essentially a smaller canopy than you started with. To compoind the problem, when you attempt to flare that canopy, you are flaring with an equally smaller portion of the canopy reducing your ability to create lift, or serodynamic drag.

You're flying less canopy, with your ability to arrest both the descent rate and forward speed being comprimised. This is why even the BASE guys, with 300 sq ft canopies designed to fly slow and land soft report pounding in after tossing their toggles.

How is it you came to be landing a skydiving canopy with no steering lines, what size was it, and how many times did you end up in this situation so as to 'know what you are doing'?

[skydiverkeith 1]

I think you explained the relevant issues very clearly. If you omit the other posts, and just read what Dave wrote (davelepka), it seems reasonably foolish to ever assume you could land safely with cut control lines. I just watched a BASE video of a lineover on a huge canopy which confirms this.

Its scary to think that cutting a lineover was part of my EPs for so long. Good thing I didn't have one!

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[burtonjm 0]

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The only jumper I know who lacks the reach to utilize the full control stroke of the rear risers is a guy with one arm.

This is my new favorite quote

This shit, right here, is OK

[Freeflaw 0]

http://www.youtube.com/user/alletklameista#p/c/81B23A142224608B/4/OdAKZpykaO4

[Beatnik 2]

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all or short, when you disconnect the steering lines you are giving up a significant portion of flight surface in anything but full flight (and even then it's likey just to flutter in the breeze). The result is that you end flying what is essentially a smaller canopy than you started with. To compoind the problem, when you attempt to flare that canopy, you are flaring with an equally smaller portion of the canopy reducing your ability to create lift, or serodynamic drag.

You're flying less canopy, with your ability to arrest both the descent rate and forward speed being comprimised. This is why even the BASE guys, with 300 sq ft canopies designed to fly slow and land soft report pounding in after tossing their toggles.

How is it you came to be landing a skydiving canopy with no steering lines, what size was it, and how many times did you end up in this situation so as to 'know what you are doing'?

A rear riser flare is not the same thing as a rear control surface flare. When the control lines are gone you flatten out the angle of incidence temporarily which effectively slows the descent rate and the forward speed. That is where being tall comes in, mainly with range of control. The control stroke depends on the canopy and there are ones that are more than a foot. It makes it similar to round chute in that respect.

Regarding lift, there is much more to it than just the tail end of the canopy. I am not going to get into all the aerodynamics of airfoils. The tail end is the most efficient but you can gain it from other areas it just isn't as great. As for the tail fluttering in the breeze it really depends on the weight distribution on the canopy. Some will do it more than others. Flaring with the rear risers doesn't really flare with a smaller portion of the canopy because it is changing a lot of aspects and generating lift more than just using air deflecting which is what happens with the control lines. It might not generate the same amount but it does generate lift.

I do a lot of test jumping and a lot of the jumps have been less than ideal. That is how I came to land canopies without the steering lines. I have done it on a 135 and a 180. The end of it I got up and walked away without a scratch. As to the amount of times like I said before I do test jumping. I have jumped close to 70 different canopies in various shapes and/or sizes and even somethings that people have told me you can't skydive with. I am more of a parachutist than a skydiver anymore and generally log my canopy time. That is how I gained this experience and I also build canopies now. Frankly I am sick of arguing on this point and won't after this. I guess that fact that I have done it more than once and walked away must mean it can't be done because you say so.

[skydiverkeith 1]

Pic of a canopy flying with both control lines cut. Fuck that!

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[davelepka 4]

That line you see running spanwise toward the rear is the D line attachment point, and where you 'lose control' of the canopy with no steering lines. That portion of the canopy becomes useless in flight and provides zero lift/drag when you go to flare. Keep in mind that section of the canopy provides the majority of the flare in a standard configuration, and you can see what you give up by tossing your toggles.

[Calvin19 0]

how many of you have landed a parachute without the brake lines? (I mean the line is flapping behind the canopy, not still through the ring, noob)

it sucks. a lot. just cut away dude. I do it for fun sometimes.

[likestojump 3]

I have. I landed a Fox 265 with both brake lines fired. It wasn't a lot of fun, and though I felt I flared quite well with the rears, I still ended up on my back :(

[Halfpastniner 0]

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I have. I landed a Fox 265 with both brake lines fired. It wasn't a lot of fun, and though I felt I flared quite well with the rears, I still ended up on my back :(

Thats called a stall, Paul. Set your toggles right next time! haha

BASE 1384

[likestojump 3]

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I have. I landed a Fox 265 with both brake lines fired. It wasn't a lot of fun, and though I felt I flared quite well with the rears, I still ended up on my back :(

Thats called a stall, Paul. Set your toggles right next time! haha

which reinforces the point that others have made in this thread - it's tricky to flare a canopy which lost the tail rear of the D lines, and combined with the fact that most people fly canopies much smaller and faster than a 265, it's just not something one should plan on doing :)

[Trae 1]

in reply to "Pic of a canopy flying with both control lines cut. Fuck that! "

just a few thoughts; If you have a line-over on your reserve we're back to square one. You may have to cut the lines .
IMO the flyoff toggles may be useful on the reserve in this situation.
Perhaps extra bulk and complication is not worth having for some people. Perhaps to others the option of quickly releasing the reserves control lines is a viable option. OK so the canopy flies like a dog but this would usually be better than spinning in .

Line overs aren't always control line-overs so some cutting of offending lines may be a necessary EP just perhaps not on your main.

During the line over mal I had I only thought of chopping not even considering cutting the lines .I'm glad I haven't had to cut any line-overs off my reserve rides as yet.

The fly-off toggles used in BASEjumping have been improved over time and today appear to be a fairly well refined product when set up and used properly.
After seeing some base line-overs there is definitely a place for them.

Perhaps one day such an item, further refined , will be attached without question to ram-air reserves.

[davelepka 4]

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which reinforces the point that others have made in this thread - it's tricky to flare a canopy which lost the tail rear of the D lines, and combined with the fact that most people fly canopies much smaller and faster than a 265, it's just not something one should plan on doing :)

Except for the guy a few posts up, who insists he has done it successfully several times on serveral different skydiving canopies, and that he was able to because he's 'tall' and has a longer reach than the rest of us.

[Beatnik 2]

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Except for the guy a few posts up, who insists he has done it successfully several times on serveral different skydiving canopies, and that he was able to because he's 'tall' and has a longer reach than the rest of us

If you want to take my post out of context go ahead. There are some canopies that have a long control stroke and that is where having a long reach is a bonus. I explained my point and it seems like you have a hard time with it because someone has done it. I can also stand up a lot round landings. Are you going to say that isn't possible because most people fall down during them?

[DexterBase 0]

I landed an ACE 220 (WL: .9) on a BASE jump with both toggles (and brake lines) trailing behind the canopy.

This was a result of one toggle firing because I climbed over the handrail with the canopy in my hands (rollover) and one toggle got dislodged prior to exit.

Upon seeing the situation, I decided to release both toggles to see how it would be to land with no toggles. (I did fully understand that the proper procedure is to retain the remaining toggle but the landing area at this site is massive and as close to a controlled experiment as I could imagine on a BASE jump.)

As I set up to land, I prepared myself for a fast landing and a PLF.

I pulled just enough on my rears to level the flight of the canopy being very careful not to stall it.

The landing was fast (no wind) and I was able to run out the speed.

On another occasion I had both toggles in my hands as the risers spun into a 180 with a 1/2 line twist. When the risers came together, my hand was compressed between them resulting in the toggle falling out of my hand.

This time, I retained the remaining toggle and flared with the both rear risers. (I had no interest in the asymmetrical flare that would result in flaring with one riser and one toggle. I believe that is is far more dangerous to impact the ground on your side, in terms if internal injuries, than performing a PLF to bleed off the speed.)

Same fast landing as a result.

Bot of those were on a lightly loaded BASE canopy.

I would NEVER attempt to land my skydiving canopy (120) without my toggles. F That. That's why there's a reserve.

[jtnesbitt 0]

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The fly-off toggles used in BASEjumping have been improved over time and today appear to be a fairly well refined product when set up and used properly.
After seeing some base line-overs there is definitely a place for them.

"when used properly"...which means slider up BASE jumps, not skydiving. Skydiving with them presents several issues.

First, they are stiff toggles, stiffer than crew, so they need to be stowed safely. When stowed in a BASE container they are against your back under the canopy, no way they can come out. One a skyrig toggles are stowed against the reserve and arent covered as well. Ever see someone jump crew toggles and how tricky it could be to secure them? These would be even more tricky.

The second issue I already mentioned once, accidental fires. It can happen, does happen, and has happened to me. Those pins need to be re-tensioned after/before every jump. Mine accidentally released on the second jump of the day.

Use the right tool for the right job.

(Note: While i did quote Trae i did so just for the example, this post is not directed at him.)

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero