Rain and Clouds

[happythoughts 0]

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Rain hurts, it is only an inconvenience.

You might hit what you cannot see under the cloud.

A passing aircraft, or another skydiver.

Example - a group gets out before you. At breakoff, the closest person tracks towards you, under a cloud, and dumps. They are vertically stationary compared to you because you are traveling at 120mph, and you hit them. Imagine.

This collision happened to my best friend 7 seconds after he deployed. Luckily the freefaller went through the front of my friend's canopy and not his body. However, what happened to him from the harness rebound made riser slap look like a tickle.

To make things worse, the freefaller, in a panic, deployed right above him. His PC was out but thankfully, nothing entangled.

this is a very real risk.

When looking for a safe, clear area, we have enough problems in clear air. Obviously, clouds remove the opportunity to see other jumpers.

Most big-way jumpers have had close calls.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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The problem isn't necesarily IFR planes flying in the clouds, the problem could very well be VFR planes flying under the clouds.

A jumpship flying above or in clouds can not effectively clear the airspace, since VFR traffic may be present under the clouds, and may not even have a transponder.

I understand your argument. However, depending on where you jump, the airspace is often Class Bravo or veil area. All aircraft are required to have an operating transponder with Mode C. The radar coverage is usually to the ground. ATC can separate you from any IFR traffic and provide traffic advisories on any VFR traffic above or below the clouds.

How well do you think a jump pilot in a large turboprop can scan in all directions below the plane, out to 3-4 miles prior to every jump? I scan for traffic on jumprun when I'm in a position to do so, but can only see part of the picture. Those aircraft can be pretty hard to see 2 miles down and maybe 3 miles away. Radar still gives you the best picture. It does have it's limitations, but it's better than most people think. Visit the ATC facility that performs ATC services for your DZ. Find out what their coverage really is and what kind of airspace you jump in.

The Aussies are jumping through clouds at about 10 DZs now. I think it can be done with minimum risks if the right procedures are implemented.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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When looking for a safe, clear area, we have enough problems in clear air. Obviously, clouds remove the opportunity to see other jumpers.

Most big-way jumpers have had close calls.

One procedure would be to not allow jumping through clouds that extend down to break off altitude. Punching a cloud at 8000' shouldn't be a deadly threat, though.

Even small way jumpers have had close calls. None of mine have been from clouds, just people not waiting long enough before exiting behind me. Were the big way incidents due to clouds?

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Example - a group gets out before you. At breakoff, the closest person tracks towards you, under a cloud, and dumps. They are vertically stationary compared to you because you are traveling at 120mph, and you hit them. Imagine.

Sounds like you left too soon.

[happythoughts 0]

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Were the big way incidents due to clouds?

No. Just simple things. Lots of different scenarios.

Say you have a 6-way base with a 8-way loop on each end. With a 180 at breakoff, some of those people will be criss-crossing each other.

They don't have to be big-ways.
On a 7-way, a lot of people do a "dog bone". A 3-way compressed with a 3-way loop on each end.

Lots of formations have unintentional overlaps.

It should be that everyone tracks 180 degrees from the center (in a perfect world). Also, everyone should track straight. Those things don't always happen.

It could be two 6-way groups. The last diver from the first group turns 180 and tracks up line-of-flight too well.

On a clear day, I am looking all around.

Some problems do not occur because we correct for them. When we see someone tracking across our path, we change a little. We react and get ourselves out of that situation because we observe it coming.

[mr2mk1g 10]

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2836&string=chipmunk

[JohnMitchell 14]

I certainly don't advocate clouds at breakoff altitude either. but I wouldn't mind getting to punch them legally up higher.

I was on some 20+ ways last week that had some folks confused about "180 from the center, not 180 from your heading in the formation!" Funny, I thought that was common sense.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2836&string=chipmunk

That wouldn't download to my work computer (dinosaur). I think I remember the clip. Were clouds a factor?

[BerryBoy 0]

As for clouds...from my own personal opinion (please note, I have one jump), when I did my tandem I ended up going through a cloud in freefall. Sure, I was ecstatic after the fact and thought it was cool...but honestly that experience should have been saved for way down the road. As a first-time jumper, I cannot say that my experiance was "heightened" by passing through a cloud. Besides the sensory overload you go through, your brain uses the cloud as a "reference" to how fast you are actually falling...and anyone with common sense should know that probably isn't a good idea, especially for first-timer's.

Watching my tandem video, I can see my face go flush as soon as I see the cloud and my brain registers how fast I am really falling! I'm sure I would have been more aware of my freefall experience had I not gone through a cloud.

Anyways...that's my 1 cent.

[billvon 2,395]

>All aircraft are required to have an operating transponder with Mode C.
>The radar coverage is usually to the ground.

Case in point.

Yesterday we had a big AFF class. On jump run I was spotting and a little helicopter (an R-22, looked like) buzzed over the landing area. He crossed over it and headed outwards. From reports on the ground he looked like he was at 1000 feet.

Since there are mountains surrounding Otay higher than 1000 feet, there is no way he showed up on any ATC radar.

>the airspace is often Class Bravo or veil area.

Class B down to 3500 feet only.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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On jump run I was spotting and a little helicopter (an R-22, looked like) buzzed over the landing area. He crossed over it and headed outwards. From reports on the ground he looked like he was at 1000 feet.

Since there are mountains surrounding Otay higher than 1000 feet, there is no way he showed up on any ATC radar.

>the airspace is often Class Bravo or veil area.

Class B down to 3500 feet only.

I understand that the B only comes down to 3500 in your area, but the a/c are required to have mode C even underneath it.

A/c overflying the DZ at 1000 feet are distressing, but I never suggested cloud jumping down to pattern altitude. At 1000 feet the pilot would still have time to see and avoid an open canopy. I've jumped with a/c directly over the DZ. By the time I've done my 60 seconds of freefall, they are 2-3 miles away. It's the ones 2-3 miles away inbound that worry me.

Did you do a go around?

Nothing in this world is perfect. But can we mitigate the risks to allow IFR jumping fairly safely? Many feel that we can, and some countries currently allow it.

[Hayfield 0]

Don't be afraid to call and pester, you're a student and DZs love their students.

"Remember the First Commandment: Don't Fuck Up!"
-Crusty Old Pete

[kevinsa 0]

Did my level 3 yesterday in partial clouds. During freefall, I went through some clouds and got snow on me.

Boy that was cold.

I went into a bit of a spin but i still deployed my parachute. Redoing the level soon.

[GreenLight 5]

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How, why and too what extent do they make skydiving unsafe for an inexperienced skydiver?

Thanks

Clouds in themselves do not make skydiving unsafe. Skydiving makes skydiving unsafe. Clouds make it more unsafe because you are now blind and can't tell if there are aircraft that will be in your path. Hitting a plane at 110 mph or better is going to hurt a lot more than rain. Not all aircraft are where they are supposed to be at all times and they are always moving.

Visual flight rules apply here and there are also restrictions on the pilot. He could lose his license, you could lose your life. Others could lose their lives as well. I don't think it's worth taking the chance. You are just making an already dangerous situation even more dangerous by adding an unknown factor into the equasion.

It doesn't matter if you're an experienced jumper or not. A guy with 6000 jumps will splatter through a wing as easily as a guy with 100 jumps. Only difference is that the more experienced guy will look more foolish because of his experience level.

How many people reading this post has had a near miss with an aircraft? I have had 3. All in clear air. So imagine what could happen with clouds.

Skydiving is NOT safe. Never was. Never will be. Says so on the inside of your container. It is up to the skydiver to do everything he or she can to eliminate as many possibilities as he or she can of getting killed while doing it. We use parachutes to reduce the possibilities of hitting the ground but they won't stop you from going through an aircraft.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."

[cakeboy 0]

This post is just food for thought. The vast majority of aircraft on aircraft mid-air collisions are on clear days with unrestricted visibility. Reguardless of regulation, ATC is much more effective at keeping skydivers and planes from occupying the same airspace than the human eye will ever be. Unfortunately it is the human eye that is held responsible when things go bad.

[happythoughts 0]

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This post is just food for thought. The vast majority of aircraft on aircraft mid-air collisions are on clear days with unrestricted visibility. Reguardless of regulation, ATC is much more effective at keeping skydivers and planes from occupying the same airspace than the human eye will ever be. Unfortunately it is the human eye that is held responsible when things go bad.

ATCs are usually at large airports.
Skydiving generally happens at a small airport 50+ miles from the ATC.

There are a lot of small a/c strolling around the countryside. Those are the ones that I worry about.
Many of them have no idea where they are.

[GreenLight 5]

"Many of them have no idea where they are."

Thankyou... Again I have had a few close calls with aircraft in my career. It's not a pretty sight and usually there is nothing you can do about the situation. All this talk about ATCs is a crock. One of my best friends was killed in a pattern over a busy airport. The guy who hit him was on his cell phone not paying attention at the time. Everyone involved in the mid air died and almost killed people on the ground. So much for ATCs.

Green Light
"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."
"Your statement answered your question."