737driver 0 #26 April 23, 2008 Yeah its company now... It was cockpit, then crew now company Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverdriver 5 #27 April 23, 2008 QuoteQuote Have you ever heard of CRM Company Resource Management? Uh...The CRM I have had beaten into me for years is "CREW/COCKPIT RESOURCE MANAGEMENT" Never heard "company" used.... so who are you a check pilot for, FYI I know plenty of 737 pilots, many check airmen, not confined to one major, so be honest. Chances are they would know you. It's Company Resource Management now. And yes, I'm a check airman now. They believe that corporate culture plays into an outcome more than believed before. I may be in the cockpit but my company must provide training and oversight so I can do my job properly and keep my passengers safe.Chris Schindler www.diverdriver.com ATP/D-19012 FB #4125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MajorDad 0 #28 April 23, 2008 QuoteWhen the government sticks its nose into things, the additional costs typically outweigh the gains. I'd like to think the USPA is the right entity, but not as long as they're the whipping boys of the group members. So that leaves us, the jumpers. You vote with your wallet and I'll vote with mine, and neither of us should try to extort money from the other. My family knows that *I* am assuming the risks when I climb into a jump plane, and that it is my fervent wish that they not try to sue anyone should my choice turn out to be poor. I hope that doesn't happen, but events in the last year have kept me honest about the possibility. I find my current risk exposure to be preferable to no exposure at all (due to the sport becoming unaffordable). Blues, Dave Sounds like 737 is trying to propose the system that has been in place in Canada for the last dozen years. Ask CSPA and any Canadian Drop Zone Owner how thats working out. The additional costs are passed to the Drop Zone (then the skydiver) as Transport Canada operates under a user pay system. My dropzone is leasing a Caravan for the season from an American Operation. Jump prices will be $36 to 14,500. The American Operation is charging $22 to 13,000 at their home base. With the exchange rate esentially being a wash nowadays and our fuel cost being somewhat higher due to taxes, it is still a fair comparison as to the costs associated with what 737 is campaining for. Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #29 April 23, 2008 I was not aware of that in Canada... Thanks for the info! Well of course I think it would be worth the extra.. Just needs someone to force it to happen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MajorDad 0 #30 April 23, 2008 If you are going to take on the mantle of crusader to protect the great unwashed, why are you so evasive as to who you are and what your experience is vis-a-vis skydiving? Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #31 April 23, 2008 Quote I said jump tickets will go up... Some drop zones will go under. But it will save lives. As I said in the other thread, you could prevent ALL skydiving related deaths by increasing the jump ticket prices enough. In weighing the risks, some of us find our current exposure per dollars paid sufficient. Who are you to say otherwise? QuoteSooner or later it will happen, I just hope people get wise and start calling things out at their DZ. If the problem is not fixed call the FSDO This I mostly agree with, though in most cases I'd prefer people leave the DZ en masse rather than call the feds, just because I'm no particular fan of snitches. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #32 April 23, 2008 Quote If operators don't follow existing laws, why expect them to follow more stringent laws? I don't! Please read my post again, I'm not the one calling for part 135 or more reg's here, my post is addressing 737drivers point of view that we should all be 135. I do think more pilots, A&P's, dzo's RD's need to stop turning a blind eye. Seeing how your quoting the 1992 hinkley crash, the same cocksucker who had a hand in selling and hanging that rotten R-985 is still in business today and the USPA was handed more then enough proof about his other on going illegal acts that endangered the staff, uspa members, tandems & AFF as well as the public on the ground. Instead of USPA telling the membership who and why they kicked out this DZ from the GM program for life they kept their mouth shut and helped to sweep it under the rug, cuz they didn't want to get sued for stating the facts. The fact that the same scumbags @ USPA who did this are the same scumbags who then get us into the whole skyride lawsuit, that should speak volumes to you about who USPA chooses to protect. So doing shit like.... Quote THE LEFT ENGINE HAD BEEN RECENTLY INSTALLED BY NON-CERTIFICATED PERSONNEL AFTER BEING INACTIVE FOR 18 YRS WITHOUT PRESERVATION AND buying K-1 to burn and getting the logbooks signed off by kool-aid, not using safety wire on D-18 cowlings or running past TBO's, using fake STC for Mogas, flying without transponders or a working radio and dropping jumpers, home made prop repairs and yadda, yadda Is not near as bad as the scam skyride is pulling. livendive On the other hand would rather not have people like me tell the FAA that a C-45 is flying around SoCal with JB Weld on the left prop and has been painted over so Dave can't see it during his walk around inspection of the AC @ this dz he has never been to before and after it crashes and the FED's find the rotten seals on the rotten R-985 and the JB Welded prop along with a whole host of other things, he don't want his family to sue the DZ and operator or the A&P who signed off all the illegal repairs that made the plane crash cuz he knew ALL the risks.There is more then one AC operator and their pilots who got lucky on 9-11-01 and that is one reason their still flying today, that and the fact that those who know help keep them out of hot water & flying unsuspecting public who all think there is FAA oversight of skydiving. Yet even after these students grow up into up jumpers and start to hear the stories, they dismiss what is factual & known to be true by many, because they get fed a line of bullshit about how it was a big plot to tell a bunch of lies to the FAA, well that and the fact that Mr. DZO is such a great guy, I bet all the family members of those dead FJC students in the Hinkley crash think he is a great guy too. Lucky for most accross the country the sport is slowly getting rid of such crooks who are now turning into old men and should be kicking the bucket sooner or later.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #33 April 23, 2008 Now that is a written post. It is such a sad state of affairs.. and so hard to get the message into some peoples heads about what is going on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colson 0 #34 April 23, 2008 How recent is "company resource management"? I heard "crew" used 3 years ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #35 April 23, 2008 QuoteThe trouble is... Lot's of jumpers and more importantly tandem students don't understand the dangers and risks. They don't know what regulations are in place, so of course they can't know if a drop zone is operating in accordance with the law. The USPA have no teeth... so cant really do anything. Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained. You have no way of knowing what training the pilot has taken with regard to jump operations, at the moment such training is not even required by law. Do you think the public knows the details of part 135 or has any way of knowing whether their 737 pilot is properly trained? It's my guess part 119/121 ops have taken more lives over the last decade than part 105. QuoteThe USPA have no teeth... so cant really do anything. Because of the lack of regulation and oversight when you climb aboard a jump airplane you have no way of knowing if it is properly maintained. You have no way of knowing what training the pilot has taken with regard to jump operations, at the moment such training is not even required by law. You mean besides that whole watch & ask thing, right? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #36 April 23, 2008 We do our CRM annually... If i remeber right it changed the last time I did it, the previous year we were still on "Crew" I think it is a great idea at the airline though.. depends on your instructor but it is really interesting and worthwhile IMO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #37 April 23, 2008 Dave the numbers don't stack up The public know because the airlines and airline flight crew are heavily regulated.. to say otherwise is to sign up with conspiracy theory's. Look at the accident rate and skydiving is WAY more dangerous. If you talk in terms of numbers of deaths of course airlines will have more... but just look how many 100000000000's of people the airlines carry. So these numbers need to be turned into an accident rate to be useful.. Once you apply this logic and common sense you see just how dangerous aircraft operated for skydiving are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #38 April 23, 2008 Quote livendive On the other hand would rather not have people like me tell the FAA that a C-45 is flying around SoCal with JB Weld on the left prop and has been painted over so Dave can't see it during his walk around inspection of the AC @ this dz he has never been to before and after it crashes and the FED's find the rotten seals on the rotten R-985 and the JB Welded prop along with a whole host of other things, he don't want his family to sue the DZ and operator or the A&P who signed off all the illegal repairs that made the plane crash cuz he knew ALL the risks. I know that there's a risk that the DZO, mechanic, and pilot are dishonest and don't give a shit if I die. I try to avoid such people, but I recognize that some day I could be make a fatal error in trusting them. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #39 April 23, 2008 QuoteDave the numbers don't stack up The public know because the airlines and airline flight crew are heavily regulated.. to say otherwise is to sign up with conspiracy theory's. YOU said the risk in 105 ops is that the public doesn't know the regs or whether the operator is in compliance. I submit that the same is true of 119/121 ops. I believe this counters the point. QuoteLook at the accident rate and skydiving is WAY more dangerous. Well of course it is. And I think 98+ percent of first jump students would agree with that statement. QuoteIf you talk in terms of numbers of deaths of course airlines will have more... but just look how many 100000000000's of people the airlines carry. So these numbers need to be turned into an accident rate to be useful.. Once you apply this logic and common sense you see just how dangerous aircraft operated for skydiving are. So are you going after GA collectively, or just the evil skydiving operations. Because when I look at the NTSB database, skydiving planes appear to be a drop in the bucket. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #40 April 23, 2008 Both... I think owner operators of VLS's and Turboprops can be dangerous.. the figures back me up. But with skydiving taking place under FAR 91 then they are classed as general aviation.. I don't think they should be because of the nature of their operation. I tell you what makes me the most sad.. reading "None instrument rated pilot, entered IMC............" Why do we keep seeing the same things happen over and over again? And why are sky divers so anti change and regulation... why do they not wish to work towards safer aircraft operation in the sport of skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #41 April 23, 2008 Oh and skydiving aircraft seem to be a drop in the bucket because their are less of them.... The accident rate of skydiving aircraft tells a very different story. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #42 April 23, 2008 QuoteAnd why are sky divers so anti change and regulation... why do they not wish to work towards safer aircraft operation in the sport of skydiving You could rephrase that "Why do they not wish the sport be priced outside of their ability to pay" and get the same answer. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #43 April 23, 2008 Well if it means that is the case then so be it. At the moment people are dying because of the state that things are in Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #44 April 23, 2008 Well to each their own, I would rather be that snitch you and so many others don't care for and rat out some lowlife DZO who could care less about killing you in his duck tape and baling wire POS AC, because his is willing to risk you, me & anyone else in the name of making/saving a buck. Everytime good DZO's and jumpers turn a blind eye and hush up, it cost everyone in the long run. Ah fuck it, it's a losing battle I've known this for a number of years and this is part of why I chose to address Mr. 737 unrealistic point of view, even tho he is right to a point.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #45 April 23, 2008 QuoteWell if it means that is the case then so be it. At the moment people are dying because of the state that things are in Even if you made the planes 100% fail-safe, people would still die. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #46 April 23, 2008 Yeah but not in the numbers they are now. Even if one life is saved it is worth it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #47 April 23, 2008 Quote Actually, we have a much worse record than commercial aviation. Comparing less with Airlines and more with like aircraft we have double the accident rate of general aviation and a HIGHER percentage of crashes than flight instruction flights and part 135 flights. We've been down this discussion path before. Skydiving does NOT stack up. Is this measured in hours or cycles? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colson 0 #48 April 23, 2008 QuoteWell to each their own, I would rather be that snitch you and so many others don't care for and rat out some lowlife DZO who could care less about killing you in his duck tape and baling wire POS AC, because his is willing to risk you, me & anyone else in the name of making/saving a buck. Everytime good DZO's and jumpers turn a blind eye and hush up, it cost everyone in the long run. Ah fuck it, it's a losing battle I've known this for a number of years and this is part of why I chose to address Mr. 737 unrealistic point of view, even tho he is right to a point. Jumpers will never self regulate. If the guys dishing out the cheapest crack, which one of the bums is going to call the cops?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #49 April 23, 2008 You're fucking joking, call things out at MY DZ? Shit! My jump prices might go up! This is the attitude of most jump sluts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
737driver 0 #50 April 23, 2008 I think it is persons carried... i could be very wrong about that though... But they have a way of working out a rate of accidents so it shows who the worst offenders are.... Not just because they had lots of people on board when they had a single accident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
