Difference in attitude

[scubadiving 0]

I am a scuba diver so apologies to post a topic not in relation to your interest. We do have something in common though and unfortunately one of those is if things go wrong serious prices can be paid.

This is what first made me aware of your site and forum. You seem to openly with respect discuss incidents and what could have gone wrong. What also can be done to stop this type of incident from happening again. On the other end of the scale us diver on the UK forums always show our respect to the deceased families but always try to steer away from actually discussing what could have gone wrong.

Im just interested if firstly you think I have my perception of you guys incorrect or Im actually missing something. Secondly and most importantly why you feel its ok and its generally accepted that you discuss such events.

I totally agree if things are discussed in the correct manner. Respectively. If however i was to ask questions on a diving forum about a death Im sure I would be shot down in flames and people not really talk to me much any more.

Keep Safe

J

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"You seem to openly with respect discuss incidents and what could have gone wrong. What also can be done to stop this type of incident from happening again."
That is in fact the purpose of this forum.
The number one guide which appears when peeps post here is placed in their face.....
"The purpose of this forum is to report, discuss and learn from fatal and serious non-fatal incidents."

"Secondly and most importantly why you feel its ok and its generally accepted that you discuss such events."
So we can learn and hopefully avoid repeating unnecessary incidents. I'm pretty sure the families of people who have had their loved ones hurt would wish that their loved ones deaths had not been in vain, and that some good can come from tragedy.
I work in the offshore industry in the North Sea, it is quite common for various companies to share lessons learned via safety bulletins, technical reports, and incident enquiries. Even if these reports criticise individual company failings.

This is a sport still very much in development, both in equipment design, the way that we use it, and train others to enjoy its use in a safe manner. We have a saying in our wee skydiving family, "Blue skies, black death". This basically means, "hey, have fun, but take care". We recognise that our sport can kill us, and our friends, even if we do everything right. We are not in denial about the risks associated with what we do.
Discussing incidents in an open and respectful way is part of understanding those risks, and empowers us to make personal decisions about managing them.
I think it is sad that the scuba community does not have this same approach.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[scottjaco 0]

As a newbie skydiver, I depend of these incident threads to futher my knowledge. You can only learn so much from your local dropzone.

DZ.com gives people the ability to share incidents to work on prevention.

There is also a webpage http://www.skydivenet.com/fatalities/ that has all the fatalites for the past decade. In each report, there is a lesson that explains the best way to avoid such a situation. I have read every single report on that website.

I am suprised that Scuba Divers are less likely to do the same.

[pkasdorf 0]

I'm a scuba diver too and it is amazing to realize (there was a poll on the subject some time ago) how many skydivers have engaged, engage or plan to engage in scubadiving (large majority). Although two very different sports they share discovery, adventure, adrenaline, personal achievement and friendship. They also share lifethreatening risk. It escapes my understanding why the scuba diving community would not like to share and learn from the incidents around the world.

The only reason I can think of is that the attitude when you get into the sport is different. When you start skydiving and in the usual practice there is very systematic and serious talk about the risks involved. When you start and in the usual practice of scuba diving, the emphasis is far from the same.

Underlying the attitude there may be the concept that scuba is so much safer, incidents are so less frequent, it is so unlikely that it may happen to you that you should not talk about it, it is unconfortable and it may give the sport bad reputation.

To me it is a great mistake!

HISPA # 18 POPS # 8757

[winsor 185]

I got certified to SCUBA dive in 1968, and a lot has changed since then. At that time there were very few people in the sport who weren't very fit, strong swimmers accustomed to the idea that if you fucked up you drowned.

Sometime around the '80s dive shops realized that they would go broke serving the needs of customers like me. I get my tanks filled and inspected and/or hydrostatic tested when necessary, regulators overhauled occasionally, and pick up the occasional bit of gear, but generally have been set since I was in High School.

By getting yuppies off the ski slopes and tennis courts, dive shops found a lucrative new market. Color coordinated gear with all the bells and whistles is now the rage, though I don't know what it does for people that my gear won't do.

Since Muffy and Biff want to be assured of a safe environment in which to drop a lot of bucks, there are all sorts of gizmos such as electronic dive computers to guarantee safety, and reports of people screwing up and dying are actively quashed.

The rate of people screwing up and dying does not appear to be greatly reduced from when I started SCUBA diving, but the availability of information regarding an incident certainly is.

The skydiving community has made steps in the direction that SCUBA took, with magic boxes to guarantee safe operation of the color-coordinated gear, and many yuppie-friendly skydiving venues that charge for damned near everything, but the immediacy of the dangers inherent in skydiving may have kept this mentality from prevailing throughout the sport.

It is still a given that a cold analysis of someone else's demise may well save my ass, so I limit my sentimentality to tears shed for friends lost, and try not to make excuses for the errors on their part that contributed to their passing.

I hope that if I fuck up and bounce/drown there won't be anyone who pretends that it wasn't my fault. None of us are immune, from rank neophytes to world champions.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[QuickDraw 0]

Maybe you ought to point a few of your admin over here and see what they think.

Most accidents are usually the result of a sequence of events, and being aware of just a few of the 'clues'
can make the difference between a good or bad choice at decision time, this is a good place to learn...
unfortunately its usually at the expense of someone else's mistakes.


I would also add, that this forum is probably one of the most moderated forums on the site.

Good luck.

-- Hope you don't die. --

I'm fucking winning

[696GrocuttT 0]

Quote

but the immediacy of the dangers inherent in skydiving may have kept this mentality from prevailing throughout the sport.

Its all about the perceived danger instead of actual danger. There is little doubt in any jumpers mind about what is going to happen if they don't manage to get a canopy about there heads.

This is both a strength and a weakness. People tend to think about safety, but only on the freefall aspects of a jump. When in fact its the canopy ride that most likely to cause serious injury or worse, but because the danger isn't staring you right in the face people can get complacent about it. I feel this is the biggest safety problem with jumping, the same is probably true of scuba diving

[diverdriver 5]

People seem to think if we discuss what mistakes the person could have made (as opposed to just discussing what mechanical problems could have happened) that we are demeaning that person some how. Maybe I'm just used to seeing the human as one part of the problem. People aren't perfect and if we do not study and discuss how humans can cause their own problems (80% of all fatal aviation accidents are due to human error) then we will only repeat them over and over again. We need to keep our head out of the sand and learn.

I am glad this forum is moderated the way it is.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Aviatrr 0]

I, too, am a scuba diver...and in my area of diving, we DO discuss such things. I don't do basic open water type diving much - most of what I do is cave and deep tec diving. When there is an accident, we discuss what went wrong(if we know) or what may have gone wrong(if we aren't sure). We do it in skydiving AND scuba diving to learn from others mistakes/experiences, and hopefully others can avoid them in the future...or at least know how to react if such a thing does occur.

One of the big problems with recreational diving is that everybody wants to make it seem like the safest thing in the world. It's not. Do I think it's extremely dangerous? No, only slightly dangerous...if you follow the rules. They(dive shops and the dive industry in general) don't want anything getting out that might scare people away - including the dangers of the sport. In the tec/cave diving circles, it's different. We make SURE everybody knows the dangers. In recreational diving, it's taboo to talk about deaths and/or injuries(such as getting bent).

Mike

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I totally agree if things are discussed in the correct manner. Respectively. If however i was to ask questions on a diving forum about a death Im sure I would be shot down in flames and people not really talk to me much any more.

Not sure what forums you participate in. The ones I deal with (either USENET or california based) are just as prone to overdiscussion and jumping to conclusions as any other sport...caused partly by the lack of full information and partly by the wish of people to believe it couldn't happen to them.

FWIW, more diving accidents have multiple causes and it's often easy to identify ways to avoid the outcome. Post mortem discussions can be very productive before the egos kick in. Unfortunately, it only takes one mistake to die skydiving and sometimes you don't have a clearly better choice. Cave diving is a closer equilivent and you'll see *very* forceful discussions about safety from the major players, especially surrounding George Irvine and the DIR folks.

[juanesky 0]

Well, first and foremost you ignore the rules of this forum, If you have an issue with the intent or objectives that the owner (Sangiro) was aiming for, you can always send him a private message.

Keep in mind that living carries in itself the risk of dying as well as certainty it will happen.

I would like to request that no people and or HH/Billvon either lock,move or erase this thread. No disrespect but most of the readers of this forum are seeking knowledge of the causes of such events.

Feel free to ask any questions about skydiving, in a more proper forum, there are many to choose.

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[scubadiving 0]

Appologies if you feel I have ignored the rules. I posted a question in incidents about incidents. I assumed this would be ok. Appologies again. I never intended to have a go at any one on this forum.

I live in the UK and as such visit UK forums. We never seem to discuss details about deaths. This year we have lost seven divers in the UK. Two of them was diving together in a quary and both died. How did this happen. ? people have made the assumption that one tried to save the other and both died. I think there is a rumour that they were a couple. This does not help to prevent this from happaning again. I would like to discuss if the bodies were located together or in different parts. They were found in deep water. what was there qualifications etc.

Recently also one John Bennett died. The rumours are his buddy detected something was wrong and they both went to ascend. The buddy never checked John again. Could this be a lesson. If you feel something is serously not right keep an eye on that person. Im not having a dig at the buddy but im sure if this was the mistake he would be the first to admit it.

Also in the last few weeks a guy who is still missing has had his reel and dsmb recovered. The reel was broke. I would like to discuss all this, We get told we cant. Im just trying to find out if there is a differance in attitude.

Climbers abroad also discuss there deaths I will be asking them the same question.

One thing i see is in common between us is attitude and throwing your dummy out the pram.

Thanks to all the serious replies. Much appreciated. If you do want to delete the post go ahead. I have printed it of and got the info I wanted.

I will continue in my quest to improve the safety of scuba divng in the UK by discussing incidents and trying to avoid them in future.

Thanks for your time

J

[pleifer 0]

One of the things I have found is that scuba divers in general are more prone to try to blame someone else for their mistakes. I am a Dive master in training, with most of the requirements out of the way, but when I was up in Hoodsport WA this weekend, it was not the students "fault" they were bouncing off the bottom, or were not paying attention to their gauges, so when they did not notice that they gained buyoency from rizing in the water they started to surface. Which is fine there are ways to deal with "egos" so that they are not brused or hurt, yet they learn the skill they need.
Skydiving people are looking more to find out what the error was, and when i biff a landing, I am the first to say I flared too high or low. Not to say there is not alot of egos in kydiving too, but in skydiving if a 3 way goes wrong, I want to know where it went wrong even if the weakest link is me it is all a learning experiance. Hope this perspective helps.
And for what it is worth I discuss incidents with my mentors, it is a quest for knowlege, not a morbid facination.

_________________________________________
The Angel of Duh has spoke

[chuckbrown 0]

Quote

Well, first and foremost you ignore the rules of this forum, If you have an issue with the intent or objectives that the owner (Sangiro) was aiming for, you can always send him a private message.

Keep in mind that living carries in itself the risk of dying as well as certainty it will happen.

I would like to request that no people and or HH/Billvon either lock,move or erase this thread. No disrespect but most of the readers of this forum are seeking knowledge of the causes of such events.

Feel free to ask any questions about skydiving, in a more proper forum, there are many to choose.

Scubadiving,

I think the fact that many jumpers have responded to your post, and that this thread is not locked speaks volumes. I for one welcomed your original post as well as the thoughtful and constructive responses. No apologies necessary.

Chuck

[sdgregory 0]

Quote

Quote

Well, first and foremost you ignore the rules of this forum, If you have an issue with the intent or objectives that the owner (Sangiro) was aiming for, you can always send him a private message.

Keep in mind that living carries in itself the risk of dying as well as certainty it will happen.

I would like to request that no people and or HH/Billvon either lock,move or erase this thread. No disrespect but most of the readers of this forum are seeking knowledge of the causes of such events.

Feel free to ask any questions about skydiving, in a more proper forum, there are many to choose.

Scubadiving,

I think the fact that many jumpers have responded to your post, and that this thread is not locked speaks volumes. I for one welcomed your original post as well as the thoughtful and constructive responses. No apologies necessary.

Chuck

I'm glad I am not the only one who thought this was out of line.

Where is this hostility coming from?