Lead seals- Interesting problem!!!

[Paraservice 0]

I got an Atom in for inspection and I pulled the reservehandle - Look what happend!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgSVIryvtw

[FrEaK_aCcIdEnT 0]

I'm not a rigger so this is my clause to anything I write below...

that is scary!

So, accidental routing through the closing loop when installing the seal.

Maybe something could be done to mistake proof it.

• smaller lead seals that will pass through the grommet?

• a personal check for riggers to include on there final inspection?

• I know I will certainly keep it in mind when receiving my rig back after a repack. It made me go check it just now...


edit: you would think that the spring in the pilot chute would have snapped it. Maybe the combined friction of the closing flaps are locking it down enough so that it's stored energy isn't able to overcome the 4.5lb. tensile strength.

Sorry if this post has no value. Just a bored wannabe wanting to understand.

ExPeCt ThE uNeXpEcTeD!
DoNt MiNd ThE tYpOs, Im LaZy On CoRrEcTiOnS!

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

I got an Atom in for inspection and I pulled the reservehandle - Look what happend!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrgSVIryvtw

Did you determine if that was proper seal thread?

I have no reserve pilot chute handy, but I believe a reserve pilot chute spring supplies a force sufficient to break the seal thread I use.

I just tested a loop of my seal thread with my spring scale. The thread broke at 5 pounds, as best I can read my spring scale.

So, what else is going on in this situation?

[councilman24 36]

While a bare PC may in theory have enough force to break seal thread I can imagine the resistence of the flaps, loop threaded through the flaps, etc. along with the 5 lbs (10lbs? two sides depending on routing and breaking) of resistence from the seal thread be enough to hold it a rig closed.

In the other thread I was talking about all the crap I'd seen. I haven't seen this one.

Does anyone recall a reference that suggested putting the seal thread through the loop? I seem to recall seeing one once but it would have been years and years ago. European (french?) maybe?

This is the kind of stuff that the USPA/PIA advisory was ment for and we'd like to have the specifics on.

And it's time for some testing.

The more I think about it I've either seen a rigger that put the thread through the loop all the time, a reference for it, or something similar. Someone help me out.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[NickDG 23]

You don't put the thread through the closing loop. You half hitch it around the cable where it enters the swedged section of the pin and the other end of the thread goes under pin itself on the other side of the grommet. The only thing going through the closing loop should be the pin itself . . .

The next time you encounter a table total like that jam you elbow into the side of the rig like a jumper in freefall would do. If it doesn't open after that you have to take it to the next level. A talk with the rigger about their misrigging or with the manufacturer about their building death rigs.

NickD

[sundevil777 93]

I thought the seal should be placed close up to the "base" of the pin,

Is that not already std practice?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Eagleeye 0]

Could someone post a pic of the proper arrangement or attachment of a seal and routing of the seal thread?
Thanks

[councilman24 36]

I hope you know you're telling me something I already know.

But I still think I've seen a reference or a demo of someone putting through the loop routinely. I can't remember where or why. It was a long long time ago. Again, anybody else remember this anywhere? It may even go back to cones.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[sundevil777 93]

Wouldn't it actually be quite difficult to get it through the loop, at least after the pin is in and the pull up cord removed?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[likestojump 3]

Quote

Could someone post a pic of the proper arrangement or attachment of a seal and routing of the seal thread?
Thanks

[pchapman 261]

I haven't thought everything through, but it seems a bunch of unusual things had to happen all together.

(Yeah, that's how accidents can occur...)

1. The seal thread had to go through (not around) the closing loop.
That could be accidental, even if unusual. While one should be able to see the routing, I could envision that someone without 20/20 vision might miss something unexpected.

2. Then when the ripcord pulled it had to break the thread 'above' the seal, where it connects to the ripcord, rather than breaking it 'below', where it went around the closing loop. That lower loop needed to be intact to allow the closing loop and seal to stay connected. Fifty fifty chance?

Or was the thread somehow poorly wrapped on the ripcord, sliding off?
I'm not sure how to interpret the photos: Was the thread 'above' the seal still a continuous loop, or 2 broken pieces? At one point, it almost looks like a knot there, which normally doesn't exist.

3. As the pin is pulled from the closing loop, somehow the seal thread doesn't break as the slack is taken up and the seal slams into and stops in the grommet.

I'd think if the seal were very close to the grommet to start with, it would reduce how much the pack could start to open before the seal hit the grommet.

Assuming it was proper seal thread, a decent pilot chute should put quite a bit of pressure on the thread - normally a lot more than 2 * 4.75 lbs = 9.5 lbs. It has been a while since I packed an Atom so I can't recall how their pilot chute strength is relative to other rigs. (E.g., on a scale of Javelin to Mirage pilot chute in strength.)

Generally, it is unlikely that the thread would hold. But that's the way it seems to have happened.

If there were some zig zagging of the closing loop plus seal thread through grommets, that could reduce the pressure needed to hold the rig closed. The zig zagging creates a pulley effect. For example: While using a Cypres Spectra pull-up cord to close a reserve container, if one holds the cord flat against the rig, 90 degrees from the direction of the closing loop, it can be easy to hold the container shut with under 5 lbs of force.


I've attached screen captures of bits of the video from YouTube to make it easier to see the situation.

[Paraservice 0]

When we got it I pulled the handle without opening the reservepincover first. Unfortunately I didn't see how the seal was attached. I like pull the reserve with the main still packed to see how the reservepilotchute perform.

The sealthread broke where it was wrapped/tied to to wire above the pin and the lower part styed intact- routed thru the loop.

The loop was a standard cypresloop.

The packjob might have been to the loose side, wich created some zig zagging/grommets spreading out, especially when the seal slided down in the grommet and lengthend the loop even more.

[parachutist 1]

Quote

Wouldn't it actually be quite difficult to get it through the loop, at least after the pin is in and the pull up cord removed?

It'd be easy because the reserve closing pin holds the two sides of the cypres closing loop apart, and the seal thread is very thin. Take a look at that area on your rig.

[Peterkn 17]

This was identified as an issue in the UK many years ago, and the BPA riggers committee came up with an approved method of sealing reserves as shown in the attachment.

Link to original document:
http://bpa.org.uk/forms/docs/f113%20-%20record%20of%20inspection.%20front%20mount%20reserves.pdf

[Larhsw 1]

I'm not sure in this case, but it may just be the lead seal and not the thread that's causing the problem here... We had a fatal accident in Norway some years back due to the lead seal got jammed between the reserve loop and the grommet after the res. handle was pulled. Never attach the seal close to the reserve loop, put it further up along the pin and cable. I know a few riggers who don't use the seal at all on their personal rigs due to this issue...

[NickDG 23]

There are a lot of angles to the age old practice of "sealing" reserves with lead. But it's my opinion they are a solution in search of a problem.

They are first and foremost anti-sabotage devices that do on some level offer comfort to newer jumpers looking for anything to hang their courage on. But just to see if I could I've opened and re-closed more than a few rigs without breaking the seal thread. It's how I learned to seal rigs so someone couldn't do that to my own pack jobs. The trick is to get it setup tight enough so the pin can't move far enough (without breaking the thread) to clear the loop but at the same time not so tight just the act of wearing the rig breaks the thread.

On the other hand when I first became a rigger I'd actually never heard of any cases of actual reserve sabotage. And all these years later, unless I missed it, I believe there's only been one.

I think there's been three documented cases of rig sabotage. One was a lover's triangle and the second a suicide. And neither had anything to do with seals as those involved cutting risers or bridles. The third one was when a disgruntled Army rigger cut the lines on some mains before packing them.

Some riggers feel the seal protects them more than the jumper/customer. But the final arbitrator of who packed what (and when) is not the seal, or even the packing data card, it's the rigger's log book. After a terminal impact seals are often lost anyway and packing data cards sometime get "updated" right there at crater-side. So the logbook is the most tamper-proof and official of the three.

When the BPA (in 1985) made sealing rigs optional we all thought, oh boy, there go those wacky Brits again. They were, it seemed to us in the States, always too quick to change things in response to accidents that were caused by user error. I believe in this case some Brits were mistakenly using seal thread that was too strong. It’s funny how in Britain they can change things almost too fast and here in the States we are way too slow. If we started a vigorous campaign today I doubt the FAA would change the reserve sealing rules in what’s left of my lifetime.

The OPs seal jam illustration, at a glance, seems to be a mis-rig. And herein is the real problem. There is no fail-safe mechanism to deal with that. The first step is the in-house rigger to rigger phone call. “Hey, Bob, I opened one of your pack jobs and found “this” and I just wanted to make sure you were aware of it.” Now how that goes is one of two ways. “Holy shit, thanks Nick, I’ll make sure that never happens again.” Or, “Hey Nick, go fuck yourself!”

If it’s the latter response now what do you do? In my case I had the advantage of my long time girlfriend being the local DPRE. And although I never had to take it to that level in some very egregious cases I’ve seen her offer a few riggers a choice. Voluntarily surrender their tickets or she’d start proceedings to have them pulled. But some DPREs can be un-responsive, or friends of the offending rigger, or whatever. You could go right to the FAA but that’s extreme and they wouldn’t know what you were talking about anyway in most cases.

The king of finding mis-rigs in reserves certainly had to be the late Al Frisby. We’d be sitting outside in the Perris Ghetto having a cold one after jumping and we’d hear a loud “Ah Ha,” from Al’s loft. And we’d laugh, “Frisby found another misrig!” Ninety nine percent of the time the reserve would have worked it was just wrong according to the packing instructions. But wrong is wrong, right? Not really as there are a lot of riggers who think they know better than the manufacturer. But that’s a whole other kettle of fish as some of them really do know more and some just think they do.

Personally, I’ve only seen one “real” injury caused by a lead seal. And that was to Ben Minnich the fellow who owned the Perris Ghetto. One day somebody cutaway above the Ghetto and the falling lead seal beaned old Ben right in the head. And for the next fifteen years (and until the day he died) Ben never went outside without wearing a construction type hard hat. We’d laugh and say, “Gee Ben, what’s the chances of that happening again?” And he’d say, “Pretty good I think. If you set up a movie camera and let it run for a couple of years, and then play it very fast, you’d see it’s raining lead around here!”

NickD