Lifetime cost of CYPRES - Was:Double Vigil 2 Fire

[PhreeZone 15]

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I bought 2 vigils in the last 3 years. Nothing, including slamming the car door and driving home has scared my vigils. Of course if you buy a cypres you pay for 2 of them in 12 years (with battery and maint fees) and have nothing to show at the end.

Actually total maintenance for a CYPRES 2 (only option new) over its life is $320 plus shipping.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[BenediktDE 2]

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Actually total maintenance for a CYPRES 2 (only option new) over its life is $320 plus shipping.

And this includes 12 years of warranty and updates.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

[TangBu 1]

With my Cypres I I have to replace the battery every 2 years whether it needs it or not. The only price I could find for the battery is $95 from http://www.parachuteshop.com/cypres_2_aad1.htm, which makes $475 just for batteries. Add in mandatory service at 4 and 8 years and you're looking at over $800, not including the repacks that are required for every battery replacement or the shipping and (in my case) customs charges.

I trust my Cypres, but the ongoing cost of ownership is higher than $320.

...Blair.

[USPA 0]

Notice the difference between cypres 1 (which your refer too) and cypres 2 which is the current cypres (which doesn't have battery replacements anymore)

Also at our DZ we had an unfortunate experience before 2 year replacement was mandtory... A relative new cypres which had been laying on the shelf for most of it first 2 years, did an ok battery check but didn't fire. due to a low battery.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[PhreeZone 15]

I am splitting this conversation to another forum since its not related to this incident.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[likestojump 3]

aside from the fact that you are talking about Cypres1, the Cypres1 batteries are $85USD from SSK directly to an end user, and are even cheaper to the dealer/rigger.

[PhreeZone 15]

You can't add the cost of the repacks since those were needed anyways even if you are on a 6 month or yearly cycle.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[bofh 0]

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(in my case) customs charges.

Do you really have to pay custom charges when sending stuff across the boarder for maintenance? That has got to be the first bad thing I've heard about Canada.

[kingbunky 3]

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(in my case) customs charges.

Do you really have to pay custom charges when sending stuff across the boarder for maintenance? That has got to be the first bad thing I've heard about Canada.

if you follow the instructions on the cypres-usa.com site, everything is billed together, shipping, service and customs paperwork. there is no duty, since the article is being sent for service and then returned.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[davelepka 4]

Actual cost - priceless.

Not really, but close. Maybe it's just the the time I started jumping, but the idea of an AAD that doesn't need to be checked out scares me. On any given skydive I spend most of my time in a position where a misfire could make some real problems for me. Hanging out on a camera step, in freefall not belly to earth or exceeding the placarded deployment speed of my reserve, or diving hard at the ground in a swoop (who remembers Adrian Nichols). I want that shit checked out on a regualr basis, and I don't mind paying for it.

In truth, I don't even mind the 12 year life limit. I bought a Cypres 1 new about 14 years ago, and was initially pissed that after I bought it they told me it would eventually become a doorstop. In looking back at it, the unit served me well for 1000's fo jumps (I guess it was working, all I know for sure is that it never mis-fired), so I have to trust that Aritec made the right call in terms of MX, battery life, and overall unit life. They had to know that competitors would come along, and that the MX and lifespan would be marketing targets for the start-ups for sure, but they stuck to their guns and stood by their protocols.

You mean to tell me that my reserve needs to be inspected every 6 months, but you have an AAD that NEVER needs to be looked at? Fabirc and strings vs. printed circuit boards, pressure sensors, switches and wires? You tell me what's going to fail first.

[tetra316 0]

+1

And that's the major reason I'm hesitating to switch to something that claims it never needs to be inspected. Although I'm sure you could still send it in to be checked out anyways.

And for those who say it will tell you something is wrong, what it that component doesn't work?

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi tetra,

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And for those who say it will tell you something is wrong, what it that component doesn't work?

And what if a similar component fails on a CYPRES and you don't know about it having failed until you return the unit for its MX? That would be a substantial period of time with a unit that is not working and you not knowing it. Nothing is fail-safe; at least nothing that I can think of.

I do agree that there are some plusses to having to send the unit in routinely; but anyone can do that with the other brands if that is an important element to them.

JerryBaumchen

[tetra316 0]

Well I'd rather have a non functioning unit for a max of 4 years then 20 years

[AndyMan 7]

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Well I'd rather have a non functioning unit for a max of 4 years then 20 years

I don't understand. If you want to send your Vigil in so much, then by all means send it in. What's stopping you?

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[kingbunky 3]

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Well I'd rather have a non functioning unit for a max of 4 years then 20 years

technically, you could have legal in-service time of 5 years between inspections on a cypres II if you got it serviced at 3.5 years (6 months early) and again at 8.5 years (6 months late).

it's still less than 20, but a lot can happen in 5 as well.

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[BrianM 1]

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(in my case) customs charges.

Do you really have to pay custom charges when sending stuff across the boarder for maintenance? That has got to be the first bad thing I've heard about Canada.

if you follow the instructions on the cypres-usa.com site, everything is billed together, shipping, service and customs paperwork. there is no duty, since the article is being sent for service and then returned.

No duty or taxes, but you get dinged around $100 for round-trip shipping. I sent one in this spring that came to $260 with round-trip shipping. So add $520 to the purchase price to cover maintenance over the 12 year life span.

"It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg

[skydiverek 54]

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I don't understand. If you want to send your Vigil in so much, then by all means send it in. What's stopping you?

That's great in theory, but in real life most people usually will have other things to spend money on. So, if AAD voluntary maintenence time comes, and you have to spend $200 or so on the check, you know how it is - you start reasoning "I have other bills to pay, unit is fine, it is gonna be fine, and so on, I will buy Playstation 3 instead, or pay for the leaking roof".

Kind of like doing a yearly check up with a doctor - no one is stopping anyone from getting all medical tests done once a year, but people still don't do it and don't worry about it or make excuses to not do them, because noone makes them do it.

I quess for the same reason automotive liability insurance is mandatory, so that this obvious action (paying liablility premium) is not left to people, who would find excuses to pay them and count on being lucky in the street

Some things are better accomplished when mandatory - that's how humans work...

[USPA 0]

Like others stated:

Vigil:
Voluntarily inspection whenever you want too.

Argus:
Mandatory inspection every 4 years, it's just on-site. (Voluntary inspection at factory also possible)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[USPA 0]

I don't buy that. If the maintenance is so important to a person, he want to pay extra for it, it will be voluntary anyway, either by buying an Cypres or Argus (both mandatory inspection, only the later at "service points") or buying a Vigil and send it in yourself.

I know people will find excuses, but that applies at buying the unit also.

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[pilotdave 0]

The importance of maintenance has nothing to do with personal opinion. If I'm sharing a plane with someone with an AAD, I'd prefer that it's been checked out. Maybe vigil's manufacturer was willing to take a little more risk than cypres' when it comes to inspecting units. That doesn't necessarily mean the need is any less. I don't know how many cypreses fail inspection at 4 or 8 years. Hopefully very few. But would vigils fail less often at 4 or 8 years? We probably don't know. And how many failure modes are likely to cause a misfire vs. how many are likely to cause the unit to not fire when needed?

But why worry about failures when perfectly working units misfire due to poorly thought out activation algorithms?
Dave

[sundevil777 93]

I wonder if the maintenance check on the vigil is similar to what a cypres must endure (vibration/heat/cold/check at limits of parameters)? I hope they do. It might just be no more demanding than how an FXC was to be tested - subject it to a simulated jump and see if it fires.

It is very tempting to see the lack of a mandatory costly maintenance check as an advantage for some AADs, but consider that the start-up self test function simply cannot confirm the accuracy of the unit (it can't provide a change in pressure to the sensor to simulate a jump), and can't confirm that it will withstand environmental (temp/vibration) extremes. All the self test can do is confirm that the electronics still work (to the extent they can self diagnose) and that there is continuity to the cutter. The self test is just not good enough for a device where accurate function is so critical.

Given the fact that some units with no self-test errors have to be sent back for a major overhaul after failing the std maintenance test (perhaps failing the vib, temp, or accuracy tests) series makes me not want to trust the Vigil or Argus self test as the only check during its lifetime.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[USPA 0]

Argus has mandatory 4 year maintenance...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[sundevil777 93]

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Argus has mandatory 4 year maintenance...

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. A call to one of their authorized service centers revealed that what they do is subject it to a chamber test like an FXC, then hook it up to a computer to do further electronics health checks and send the results to the mfg. It is better than nothing, but not nearly the thorough wringing out that the cypres gets.

Here's how the Vigil people describe why no maintenance is required. As I said before, a self-test cannot detect how accurate the unit is, and cannot identify a bad connection like operating the unit during a vibration test will. Very lame rationale by the Vigil folks:

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The actual technologic evolution is our partner. As in your car, no maintenance is required as for the electronics, unless a red flashing signal appears on the dashboard. The Vigil® concept works in the same way. When you switch on the unit, it performs all necessary internal checks on all parameters automatically. If one parameter is out of specifications, the unit will indicate it in clear language on the screen and will not switch on. In those conditions a factory check up is mandatory.

What a sad bunch of bullshit. Self test diagnostics can't check everything.

What is the purpose of my repeatedly mentioning this? Maybe more folks will reconsider their buying decisions and the mfgs will reconsider their policies. I really do want there to be more competition to the cypres, I really did think that the vigil and argus (heck, even the Astra when it came out) would be a significant step forward. They had such a clear standard to meet and exceed. It is pathetic how they have failed.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[USPA 0]

Personally I don't think Argus failed. As far as I know (but I have yet to witness an Argus maintenance) An FXC is a simple go/no go test. The argus maintenance also checks the sensors itself etc. But I really should set up a demonstration to really get to know this stuff..

The cypres testing sounds great, but not sure if it's really needed. There is no way of telling whether the unit itself will still function the moment it has left the testing chamber. Furthermore when you stress the components to their max, the possibility of failure increases. This failure doesn't have to happen during testing itself, but can also occur later...

Mind you, I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying I'm not convinced it's the only way to go...

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[spootch 0]

....just so everyone knows, all those who are leary of relying on a "self check" such as the Vigil also rely on the "self check" EVERY time they jump with any AAD. Just because a factory tests a unit to near destruction, does not mean it will fire correctly the day after you get it in the mail. Every jump we do with an AAD will ultimately rely on a "self check"..... just so everyone knows.....