davelepka 4 #26 March 10, 2011 Quote So if you have the altitude, why not make 1 or 2 attempts at fixing that mal? But the fact is, the average jumper is on a non-elliptical 170 at a WL of 1.0-1.3. The chances of them being subjected to such G-Forces are minimal to none. Your initial post made reference to a clear and pull from 12k, and then riding it down to 5k. That's quite a bit more than 1 or 2 attempts to clear a mal. On that same subject, the average jumper, on the average canopy, can experience enough g-loading to cause a loss of consciousness. The high G loads created by a spinning high performance canopy can put you out over a short duration, but so can the moderate G-loads of a more average canopy when experienced over a longer duration, like riding a spinner from 12k to 5k. Keeping in mind that most jumpers, regardless of experience or canopy type are not trained to recognize or coutner the effects of a G induced loss of consciousness, making a suggestion that exposes jumpers to a G load for any duration of time is asking for trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShayneH 0 #27 March 10, 2011 QuoteQuote So if you have the altitude, why not make 1 or 2 attempts at fixing that mal? Your initial post made reference to a clear and pull from 12k, and then riding it down to 5k. That's quite a bit more than 1 or 2 attempts to clear a mal. Sorry. Let me clarify that: ...why not make at least one or two attempts.... Quotemaking a suggestion that exposes jumpers to a G load for any duration of time is asking for trouble. As I've already stated 4 times: If my canopy is spinning/diving, I won't make an attempt to fight it. I will just chop it right off the bat. I am in no way suggesting anyone else try it either. Can we put the spinning mal argument to rest now? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #28 March 10, 2011 On a high H&P malfunction I took being cool one step further, and grabbed a riser THEN cut-away. Thought was to drag it down lower so it would be easier to follow down under the reserve. I let it go around 5 grand, would have dragged it lower but just couldn't hang on any more...I'm of course a lot smarter and experienced now so we don't need to go through all the reasons this was a dumb thing to do...but what it DID do was burn the 'holey' hell out of the canopy. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,384 #29 March 10, 2011 >But why do you assume that a mal from 12,500 is going to cost you your life? >Unless the canopy is subjecting you to enough G-Force to incapacitate you (in which >case I would chop too), there's really no reason not to try to fight it. It would really suck to get to 5000 feet, and then realize that the 2.5 G's you've been pulling for the last minute has sucked your cutaway cables partly through the risers. That's happened at least once that I can think of. You might also want to consider whether you want to hunt for a good canopy in a forest somewhere, or easily recover a canopy that has three slits sawn through it from the lines on top that have been rubbing against it for 7000 feet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ShayneH 0 #30 March 10, 2011 Here, just in case anyone has missed the point: QuoteUnless the canopy is subjecting you to enough G-Force to incapacitate you (in which case I would chop too), there's really no reason not to try to fight it. Quote...the only clear argument that has been presented (over and over despite retort) is the possibility of loss of consciousness from a diving canopy (which I stated a long time ago that I would chop right off the bat). Quote...if altitude permits and your canopy isn't in a deathspin, it's better to make... QuoteSo if I have a mal that isn't going to incapacitate me, I'll ride it down... QuoteAs I've already stated 4 times: If my canopy is spinning/diving, I won't make an attempt to fight it. I will just chop it right off the bat. Now, if anyone wants to address my actual point, I'm all ears. (See below) QuoteSo in conclusion to my opinion, if altitude permits and your canopy isn't in a deathspin, it's better to make at least one quick attempt to remedy the problem before subjecting yourself to the possibility of a whole new set of problems. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,621 #31 March 10, 2011 Quote Now, if anyone wants to address my actual point, I'm all ears. (See below) Not to mention the actual point in the OP:- at the start of a new jumping season with a lot of skydivers having been off for a few months we always seem to get a spate of accidents.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #32 March 10, 2011 Quote So in conclusion to my opinion, if altitude permits and your canopy isn't in a deathspin, it's better to make at least one quick attempt to remedy the problem before subjecting yourself to the possibility of a whole new set of problems. Unless you don't want to... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #33 March 10, 2011 QuoteThe way I am interpreting what you folks are saying is that you would not attempt to fix ANY malfunction. Well that would have saved the girl in Perris.... I can think of quite a few others off the top of my head that died thinking they could fix the problem. QuoteIf anyone has a genuine opposing opinion to the above statement, I'd love to hear it. I'm always open to new information. But if it's the G-force argument, or you want to argue just for the sake of it, I'm not that interested. How about the "Time seems to disrupt while knee deep in shit" angle? Do you think the people that chopped at 500 feet thought they were that low? Or is it more likely that they kept trying to fix a problem they thought they could get a handle on until they ran out of altitude? When in an emergency situation time distorts.... It is very easy to spend what you think is a millisecond on a problem only to find out that you have spent a great deal more time on the problem. QuoteI'll ride it down to a lower altitude so that I have a better chance of recovery.......It's just my method that works for me in my environment. Have you done this? Have you had a mal yet?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PiLFy 0 #34 March 11, 2011 Quote Quote Here's that interview: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQuJr5wuvSw Bill should consider beard-reserve entaglement scenario as well He hasn't had a snag in almost forty years. I'd say he's got that one down by now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #35 March 11, 2011 QuoteBut if it's the G-force argument, or you want to argue just for the sake of it, I'm not that interested. I am not trying to argue with you or anyone else. I stated my opinion and your response was: QuoteHeh, let's hear you say that when you take your brand new $2000 canopy on a 12,500' high pull only to mal out the door in 40kts uppers. Not many people cut away at 12,500. And if price is that big an issue, the longer you say with it the more damage it is likely to sustain. But even at that altitude there is a fairly good chance you canopy can be recovered. By staying with a malfunction and trying to correct the problem you are increasing the chances you will find yourself in a condition called Temporal Distortion. So in conclusion, “I look up and if I can’t land it, it’s gone.” I do not do rigging in the air. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 370 #36 March 11, 2011 QuoteStart of a new jumping season. Be careful out there, folks. Mr. Kallend and I don't agree on some things, but he gets a big +1 from me on this one. If I could add anything to it, I'd say "let's stop with the stupid shit".Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #37 March 11, 2011 Quote If I could add anything to it, I'd say "let's stop with the stupid shit". What is the common stupid shit you see people doing?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #38 March 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe way I am interpreting what you folks are saying is that you would not attempt to fix ANY malfunction. Well that would have saved the girl in Perris.... I can think of quite a few others off the top of my head that died thinking they could fix the problem. QuoteIf anyone has a genuine opposing opinion to the above statement, I'd love to hear it. I'm always open to new information. But if it's the G-force argument, or you want to argue just for the sake of it, I'm not that interested. How about the "Time seems to disrupt while knee deep in shit" angle? Do you think the people that chopped at 500 feet thought they were that low? Or is it more likely that they kept trying to fix a problem they thought they could get a handle on until they ran out of altitude? When in an emergency situation time distorts.... It is very easy to spend what you think is a millisecond on a problem only to find out that you have spent a great deal more time on the problem. QuoteI'll ride it down to a lower altitude so that I have a better chance of recovery.......It's just my method that works for me in my environment. Have you done this? Have you had a mal yet? I have. I broke a line on a CRW deployment at 13K. A control check found that I could achieve straight & level flight only with one toggle buried. I decided immediately that I wasn't landing the main. I also decided I was riding it down since the area I was jumping had LOTS of TALL trees off the airport. No way was I chasing the main. I flew the main down to 3K and chopped. Got all my gear back. I evaluated the risks and determined there was no greater risk if I chopped at 13K or 3K (other than losing gear). If I'd had a spinner, the risk calculation would have been different. Each situation is unique & needs to be analyzed as such. I think I owe beer for disagreeing with Ron. Edited to add: the Temporal Distortion effect is real, only it works in reverse for me. I've been in CRW wraps where it felt like I was spending LOTS of time on a problem. When I reviewed the video, only seconds had passed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #39 March 11, 2011 QuoteQuote If I could add anything to it, I'd say "let's stop with the stupid shit". What is the common stupid shit you see people doing? In 3 of the 4 fatalities resulting form these three incidents, improper canopy control appears to be the major contributing factor. To die in this sport with a good canopy is quite preventable...since it seems to be a trend over the past several years, some may characterize it as stupid shit. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #40 March 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote If I could add anything to it, I'd say "let's stop with the stupid shit". What is the common stupid shit you see people doing? In 3 of the 4 fatalities resulting form these three incidents, improper canopy control appears to be the major contributing factor. To die in this sport with a good canopy is quite preventable...since it seems to be a trend over the past several years, some may characterize it as stupid shit. Quote"It is tragic to become a statistic because of some new set of circumstances, but it is unforgivable if it has occurred before." Dan Poynter, 1971. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #41 March 12, 2011 Yeah I'm the same way. Its odd - I've had lots of videos of CRW cutaways and a couple videos of my own malfunctions. Every one of them I would SWEAR the events took forever, yet watching the video it was crazy quick.. So quick I'd swear the video was in fast forward... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #42 March 12, 2011 QuoteEdited to add: the Temporal Distortion effect is real, only it works in reverse for me. I've been in CRW wraps where it felt like I was spending LOTS of time on a problem. When I reviewed the video, only seconds had passed. Yes it is. QuoteYeah I'm the same way. Its odd That is what happens in TD. Under high stress situations it is possible for the mind to go into “high gear” and the result is like looking at slow motion film. You might perceive that 8 sec. have passed when in reality 10 sec. have passed. You have perceived each sec. to be 25% longer than reality. This gives the mind a false sense of available time to complete the task at hand. And this is why pilots and skydivers die when things turn to shit close to the ground. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #43 March 12, 2011 Quote That is what happens in TD. Under high stress situations it is possible for the mind to go into “high gear” and the result is like looking at slow motion film. You might perceive that 8 sec. have passed when in reality 10 sec. have passed. You have perceived each sec. to be 25% longer than reality. This gives the mind a false sense of available time to complete the task at hand. And this is why pilots and skydivers die when things turn to shit close to the ground. Sparky Sparky, this kind of things happens when ppl already experienced the time schrinking effect. The next time when they come under simmilar situation... they may take "lay back" attitude by thinking "ohh, last time I had planty of time. I did everything so quick and I thought a lot of time passed but I did everything in just few seconds"... this time I can do it a bit slower as well... and there they go... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #44 March 12, 2011 QuoteSparky, this kind of things happens when ppl already experienced the time schrinking effect. I am not sure what you mean. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyper 0 #45 March 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteSparky, this kind of things happens when ppl already experienced the time schrinking effect. I am not sure what you mean. Sparky example: Following the Chuck´s post, he is now aware of the effect that the time slows down in the critical situations. Next time he experience the similar situation he might think that the time slows down again and he might be doing the same things slower... and loose more time. btw. it´s generally accepted theory that during the critical events humans react quicker and because of that might think that the time elapses slower. They are of course not aware of this effect during the event - but afterwards - as Chuck described in his post: he was aware of it while watching the video footage of the event. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #46 March 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteSparky, this kind of things happens when ppl already experienced the time shrinking effect. I am not sure what you mean. Sparky I think I do, and would agree. After having been through the 'time compression' some feel they maybe have more time because they subsequently believe they are acting 'faster' than perceived. I've noticed it to an extent and maintain...one needs to keep altitude awareness as the priority, internal clocks are NOT reliable at crunch time. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #47 March 13, 2011 Temporal Distortion is not something you learn or remember from a prior experience. It is a response to high stress situation. It seems to be caused by the narrowing of attention that occurs during a stressful or threatening situation. This produces the sensation that time slows down during an emergency creating the perception that you have more time to correct problem then you do. The effects can be reduced or eliminated by not fixating on one task and checking the overall situation. For skydivers this usually means they may fixate so much on trying to clear a malfunction that they fail to hear their audible and do not pick up the visual cues as to their altitude. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #48 March 13, 2011 QuoteEdited to add: the Temporal Distortion effect is real, only it works in reverse for me. You would be the only person that it works that way. You may be thinking that you will not panic, but that is not the same as the temporal distortion."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckbrown 0 #49 March 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteSparky, this kind of things happens when ppl already experienced the time schrinking effect. I am not sure what you mean. Sparky example: Following the Chuck´s post, he is now aware of the effect that the time slows down in the critical situations. Next time he experience the similar situation he might think that the time slows down again and he might be doing the same things slower... and loose more time. btw. it´s generally accepted theory that during the critical events humans react quicker and because of that might think that the time elapses slower. They are of course not aware of this effect during the event - but afterwards - as Chuck described in his post: he was aware of it while watching the video footage of the event. The fact that one has good responses in high stress situations should not change how one responds to those situations. If something's not right, it's wrong & can kill you. When shit hits the fan, you do what you need to do to resolve the situation ASAP. Never rely on an "internal clock." Work on the problem while maintaining altitude awareness. When you run out of working altitude, go to Plan B. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #50 March 13, 2011 Quote You would be the only person that it works that way. You may be thinking that you will not panic, but that is not the same as the temporal distortion. To me, everything seems to be happening so slow when it goes bad. I've had a bunch of CRW wraps on video - and I would have sworn we fought them for a minute or more, when the video shows it was mere seconds. I've got a couple of spinning mals on video, and when I land I would swear I fought it longer than I did - but the video shows otherwise.. I have had several jumps where I feel like I have severe pilot chute hesitations, yet my video shows it was still reasonably fast.. When I encounter an emergency situation, my brain goes into such overdrive, that what feels like 30 seconds is like 3.. I've had a lot of videos of various CRW situations and my perception of how long the whole event took is ALWAYS WAY longer than the video proves... I know other people have an opposite reaction. Its kind of odd... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
