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PixieUK

Seat belts on jump planes

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topdocker

If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


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I never thought I'd be able to put a price on skydive safety... I was wrong, it's $15 a jump. I think everyone that jumps there understands that part of the deal. I like Lodi, some of the locals are dicks, but it's ok.

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topdocker

If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf



p14+

Quantum Leap Twin Otter.

Yeah, single point attachments and long lanyards aren't great, for flail injuries, rotational whipping about, a couple feet of nearly unrestrained movement and so on.

Plus we always seem to be reaching towards the front of the plane for the next available belt, when we really want to be reaching well towards the back of the plane... but there aren't enough belts, in the right place, for that.

But no restraints and hoping to do a Dan B-C and be cushioned by the pile of bodies stuffed into the front of the Otter is a worse option in my mind, in general.

You'd perhaps agree that our belts are more for a semi-serious accident than a really serious accident. Same for helmets, whether in skydiving or riding a bicycle.

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muff528

I think that, rather than preventing injuries during a crash, they are most useful in giving the pilot a fighting chance at keeping the plane under control while it's still flying.



.....................................................................

Good point!
Belts help keep the (passenger) load balanced, greatly easing the pilot's work load.

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topdocker

If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


top



Yet almost a full decade after that crash, I've never seen a two-point harness attachment in any jump plane I've ever been on. Why is that? Harnesses can't cost that much.

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jclalor

***If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


top



I never thought I'd be able to put a price on skydive safety... I was wrong, it's $15 a jump. I think everyone that jumps there understands that part of the deal. I like Lodi, some of the locals are dicks, but it's ok.

When did this become a contest about who has the safest dz? I pointed out that you might be overestimating the ability of a seatbelt to save your ass.

Wear your seatbelt, but understand the limitations of the design and engineering, and the laws of physics. Wear your seatbelt in a way that may help save you. Understand it may not. This is not about which DZ has the better planes or the better gear (Lodi will clearly win that), it is about informing jumpers that the equipment they are using (the aircraft single point restraint) is not designed to work as it is used in many aircraft and may fail even in an accident.

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Jump more, post less!

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Yet almost a full decade after that crash, I've never seen a two-point harness attachment in any jump plane I've ever been on. Why is that? Harnesses can't cost that much.



On some planes where you sit facing sideways, such as a CASA, that style is typical.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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sundevil777

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Yet almost a full decade after that crash, I've never seen a two-point harness attachment in any jump plane I've ever been on. Why is that? Harnesses can't cost that much.



On some planes where you sit facing sideways, such as a CASA, that style is typical.



That's what I was wondering...

It's also the standard setup on all SDAZ planes: skyvan, otters, and even the DC3.
Remster

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What do you mean by that? A regular lap style seat belt that attaches on either side of your body (ie 2 points)?



I meant any two-sided affair that I could better secure myself with. I could run a lap belt through my harness, or use two single attachments through the harness.

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"On some planes where you sit facing sideways, such as a CASA, that style is typical."



They weren't configured like that on a Casa I jumped. TBH, I also wasn't crazy about sitting sideways. Looked to be real bad in the advent of a crash.

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Is one at Perris or Elsinore two point harness attachment sys?
The one that goes over your laps?

I think the general consensus of tandem instructors who takes the seat right next to the cockpit knows the fact that they are going to get crushed no matter what.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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stayhigh

Is one at Perris or Elsinore two point harness attachment sys?
The one that goes over your laps?

I think the general consensus of tandem instructors who takes the seat right next to the cockpit knows the fact that they are going to get crushed no matter what.



The Elsinore system is a full lap belt/goes around your waist.

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jclalor

***An object lesson in use of passenger restraints when skydiving. Given the details, someone at Lodi must have read this report:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2008/a08p0242/a08p0242.asp


Skip to:
Crashworthiness and Survivability

Or:
Findings
5. Not using the restraint devices contributed to the seriousness of injuries to some passengers.



"The Bill Dause Beech 65-A90 King Air (United States registration N17SA, aircraft serial number LJ-164) took off from Pitt Meadows Airport"

If you didn't know, that's the elderly gentleman with long hair that sold you your jump ticket at Lodi. I bet he read it.

That was my point.

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topdocker

If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


top



That is a case for improved tighter restraint in some aircraft, not a case against using restraints. Claiming they might as well have put them around their necks is nonsense. There are a range of crash scenarios and outcomes. In the Canadian crash I cited, the lack of restraint use was listed as the cause of increased injuries, without even getting into load balance territory. In any case it is moot, restraint use is an FAA requirement.

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Remster

***But I wonder, do you really want to survive the crash?

I think I rather die than suffer from that much injury.



I've known several people who were able to walk away from a plane crash because they had a seatbelt.

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Look at the two most recent forced landings in New Jersey and Switzerland and Switzerland. Every body wore seat-belts and every one limped away from the Cessna wreckage.
Limping away from the wreckage is a good thing.
I have limped away from one wrecked airplane. Only problem is that I am still limping 7 years later.

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In the Canadian King Air crash, only the pilot was wearing a seat-belt. He suffered facial lacerations when he head-butted the instrument panel. He got off lucky because if the throttle quadrant had been bent a few more inches to the left, he would have suffered broken legs.

I was sitting with my back to the pilot's seat. When the airplane decelerated, 3 or 4 guys piled on top of me, tearing my left knee in an " interesting" way. I suffered: concussion, lacerated forehead, dis-located shoulder, bruised sternum, bruised ribs, twisted spine and was covered in bruises from top to bottom. Everything hurt!

Bruises prevented me from getting a full night's sleep for 2 months after the accident. Physio-therapy was a slow and painful process. It was 5 months before my dislocated shoulder was strong enough for solo jumps. 8 months before I was strong enough to jump with light tandem students, but I never re-gained my full strength. 7 years after the accident I am waiting for a second knee surgery to repair 3 torn ligaments.

If everyone wore seat-belts, my knee would not have gotten torn up and I would have suffered fewer bruised muscles.

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.......

Yet almost a full decade after that crash, I've never seen a two-point harness attachment in any jump plane I've ever been on. Why is that? Harnesses can't cost that much.

........................................................................................

"Two point" has 2 meanings: double-lug cargo restraints or 2 separate seat-belt attachment points.

In many jump-planes, seat-belts are often screwed onto cargo Tie-down rings. Those cargo rings are clipped onto rails along the floor. Double-lug cargo rings are less likely to pull loose than older single-lug cargo rings.

The other interpretation involves using one restraint belt versus 2. This is relevant when attaching Hooker's belts to parachute harnesses.
After viewing video of the 1997 FAA crash sled tests, we concluded that single-sided belts vastly reduced balance problems and minimized the flail arc (how many other jumpers you slap). However, single-point anchors looked like they would cause some nasty twisting injuries to crash test dummies, so anchoring both sides of the harness to Hooker's belts would eliminate a lot of twisting injuries. IOW two attachment points are better than one.

Given skydiving attitudes, we are doing well if we can convince jumpers to attach one side of their harness because that keeps the airplane balanced and minimizes flail injuries.

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dorbie

***If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


top



That is a case for improved tighter restraint in some aircraft, not a case against using restraints. Claiming they might as well have put them around their necks is nonsense. There are a range of crash scenarios and outcomes. In the Canadian crash I cited, the lack of restraint use was listed as the cause of increased injuries, without even getting into load balance territory. In any case it is moot, restraint use is an FAA requirement.

I must be seriously misinterpreting something in that report. It looks to me like the 2 jumpers that didn't wear their seatbelts were the problem, not the failure of the attachment points of those that did.

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"IOW two attachment points are better than one."



This is what I meant. I'm used to seeing the cargo rails you mentioned for securing the single-sided belts. I just wish there were belts on each side, for each jumper.
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"Given skydiving attitudes, we are doing well if we can convince jumpers to attach one side of their harness because that keeps the airplane balanced and minimizes flail injuries."



I jump at a few different DZs. I'm happy to say I usually don't see that kind of flippant attitude regarding belting up. Anyone not belting up would be spoken to. I do see a lot of belts that aren't tightened. I also sometimes can't get a belt on a full load if right by the door.

I'm not trying to argue w/anyone. It just bothers me that USPA & the FAA both know about this easily mitigated hazard, yet won't enforce corrective action. Not for nuttin, but how much would another 21 sets of belts cost for an Otter?? A whole lot less than the potential consequences.

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Remster

***But I wonder, do you really want to survive the crash?

I think I rather die than suffer from that much injury.



I've known several people who were able to walk away from a plane crash because they had a seatbelt.

This is a question with unknowable parameters. It boils down to do you want to be hurt more, or hurt less. Given that you cannot know all the variables there seems to be only one sensible answer.

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