Seat belts on jump planes

[riggerrob 558]

Video the goat rodeo confusion surrounding seat-belts.
Show your video to DZ management and threaten to show the same video to the insurance company. If the insurance company ignores you, offer to show the video to civil aviation authorities.

[muff528 3]

I've been away from the sport for a while, but I can't believe we're still talking about seat belts in 2015.

[riggerrob 558]

muff528

I've been away from the sport for a while, but I can't believe we're still talking about seat belts in 2015.

......................................................................................

We are still talking about seat-belts because it is part of a cycle. Many young skydivers only jump for three years before they move on to marriage, careers or other sports.
Lessons learned long ago need to be repeated every few years before young jumpers start repeating mistakes invented by their fore-fathers.

We need to discuss seat-belts every few years to remind young skydivers of what happens when airplanes malfunction.

[Baksteen 84]

muff528

I've been away from the sport for a while, but I can't believe we're still talking about seat belts in 2015.

Well, there are plenty of other dead horses being beaten with opened cans of worms:

AADs, helmets, fast downsizing, low time jumpers with camera's, snag hazards, RSL/skyhook usage just to name a few. The list goes on and on.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[dorbie 0]

Lodi a.k.a. Parachute Center - 2 weeks ago.

I go for a checkout dive, never been to this DZ before. I put on my seatbelt and other jumpers start telling me not to bother, they don't leave me to buckle up, they actively dissuade me from it. An AFFI says to me, "It's not enforced here", so you have Tandem PAX, TI's, AFFIs, up jumpers and nobody was wearing a seatbelt. Now if you belt up in that environment it's almost pointless, there will be 20+ meat missiles flying around if shit ever happens.

I don't know what set of rules this DZ operates under but it ain't FAA regs.

[chuckakers 370]

dorbie

Lodi a.k.a. Parachute Center - 2 weeks ago.

I go for a checkout dive, never been to this DZ before. I put on my seatbelt and other jumpers start telling me not to bother, they don't leave me to buckle up, they actively dissuade me from it. An AFFI says to me, "It's not enforced here", so you have Tandem PAX, TI's, AFFIs, up jumpers and nobody was wearing a seatbelt. Now if you belt up in that environment it's almost pointless, there will be 20+ meat missiles flying around if shit ever happens.

I don't know what set of rules this DZ operates under but it ain't FAA regs.

As I understand it, the lack of seat belt use is longstanding at Lodi but it's very disappointing that it's being encouraged. I want to say it's only a matter of time before the feds crack down on it but it's been happening for so long and so publicly without an enforcement action that it seems nothing will ever be done.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Elisha 1]

No mention yet, so....

What about wingsuiters? Can't buckle it around the leg/harness and often they are too short to go around your waist. Sometimes it is long enough to reach your chest strap, but this was already frowned upon.

[Baksteen 84]

"Prince Albert"

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[riggerrob 558]

If seat-belts are too short to go around a wing-suiter's waist, they are TOO SHORT and should be replaced by seat-belts long enough to do the job.

[fcajump 153]

Thanks for the heads up.
Occasionally travel to CA, but hadn't been to Lodi yet... looks like I'll give it a miss until things change.

Yep, I grew up without seat belts in jump planes, and 'everyone forward for takeoff', but in theory we learn better with time and experience.

If/when they have a plane down and/or flip, the FAA will burn them as they've done in the past elsewhere... (not to mention the unnecessary deaths/injuries that may happen).
Unfortunately if its bad enough, FAA HQ will make sure it also includes a major crackdown on the rest of us... looking for anything they can find when they see that most other DZ's have adopted seat belt use... Its happened before, and Lodi (and others I'm sure) are setting up the conditions for it to happen again.

Thanks guys.
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 558]

Sad how young skydivers insist on repeating the mistakes made by their elders (POPS).

[dorbie 0]

riggerrob

Sad how young skydivers insist on repeating the mistakes made by their elders (POPS).

What about when it's our elders perpetuating the mistakes?

[diablopilot 2]

riggerrob

If seat-belts are too short to go around a wing-suiter's waist, they are TOO SHORT and should be replaced by seat-belts long enough to do the job.

Disagree. Not all skydiver seat belt restraints are designed to go around the waist like a lap belt. Many are designed to go through the harness of the parachute system the jumper is wearing. Using them in a manner other than intended is not acceptable. If the wing suit prevents proper use, then the SUIT is the problem. Simply unzip the suit far enough to access the harness. Or don't get on the aircraft with incompatible gear.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dorbie 0]

Yup, the FAA discusses specific restraint systems that have got nothing to do with going around waists but are approved for looping through the main lift web of a parachute harness. See discussion with pictures at the end of this document:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_105-2E.pdf

I did not know I was supposed to loop around the MLW when connecting like this until I saw this document. Useful information.

[riggerrob 558]

dorbie

Yup, the FAA discusses specific restraint systems that have got nothing to do with going around waists but are approved for looping through the main lift web of a parachute harness. See discussion with pictures at the end of this document:

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_105-2E.pdf

I did not know I was supposed to loop around the MLW when connecting like this until I saw this document. Useful information.

........................................................................................

Thanks for posting a link to that FAA document. It taught me a couple of things.
The FAA did not mention one method of belting skydivers. That method involves passing a regular seat-belt between the jumper's belly and his harness. That way, the harness helps reduce the flail envelope.

[shadeland 5]

I'm a private pilot and skydiver. I also spend a lot of time on commercial planes as a passenger.

Skydiving changed my perspective on seatbelts/passenger restraint systems on airplanes.

In cars, we primarily regard a seatbelt as something that will save *me*. And if I'm not wearing one, it's my choice.

Then I read about the Perris accident, as others have referenced in this thread.

I heard another skydiver on this board suggest a helpful phrase to someone on a jump plane that refuses to put a seatbelt on. I'm paraphrasing here, but he said something to the effect of

"Put your seat belt on."

"Naw, I don't need it."

*Smack 'em upside the head* "It's not for you dipshit, it's for me."

In planes, your seatbelt is not for you. In a crash, it's probably not going to help you out like a seatbelt in a car would. It's for everyone around you, so they don't turn into a meat missle/blender blade. It's for the pilot so he doesn't have a sudden shift in CG.

I give pilot briefings to students, and the phrase I use is "your seatbelt isn't for you, it's for everyone else".

Here's a good GIF that demonstrates the issue in a car. There are two passengers in the back seat, one of them without a seat belt, just absolutely pummels the other one. It looks like she's hurt a bit from it. If the other one had worn a seatbelt, that wouldn't have been the case.

http://imgur.com/gallery/PLcEVqU

And for very somber demonstration of the need to keep the center of gravity in check....

http://imgur.com/gallery/pDXlvNR

A shift like that could potentially happen on a jump plane if jumpers weren't secured and the pilot had to yank back to avoid another plane or obstacle. If there's something that pilots don't fuck with, it's CG limits.

I've been on a load or two before where not all of us could find our belts, and one or two people rode the plane up to 1,000/1,500 without one. That happens. But a DZ (*cough* Lodi *couch*) that doesn't as a matter of SOP I think is asking for a tragedy.

[Andy9o8 0]

dorbie

***Sad how young skydivers insist on repeating the mistakes made by their elders (POPS).

What about when it's our elders perpetuating the mistakes?

Same thing as when the older generation, who grew up not wearing seatbelts in cars, don't wear them today: rules, social pressure and reproach, if and as needed.
My mother in law was born in the 1920s. Back when my oldest daughter was a toddler I caught my MIL driving my kid around without buckling her into her car seat. That lady almost died by my hand that day.
I started jumping in the 70s before any jump planes had seat belts. Even after the Beaver at our DZ crashed on takeoff with a load of jumpers in it, it never occurred to anyone to install seat belts. But I sure as hell wear them now, and would speak up if anyone else on the load tried not to.

[dorbie 0]

Andy9o8

******Sad how young skydivers insist on repeating the mistakes made by their elders (POPS).

What about when it's our elders perpetuating the mistakes?

Same thing as when the older generation, who grew up not wearing seatbelts in cars, don't wear them today: rules, social pressure and reproach, if and as needed..

Ahh the good old days when cigarettes were "physician recommended".

[dorbie 0]

An object lesson in use of passenger restraints when skydiving. Given the details, someone at Lodi must have read this report:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2008/a08p0242/a08p0242.asp


Skip to:
Crashworthiness and Survivability

Or:
Findings
5. Not using the restraint devices contributed to the seriousness of injuries to some passengers.

[fcajump 153]

Myth Busters did a sled test that was to evaluate possible injuries for airplane seats with and without seatbelts.

The crash dummies showed likely leg and other injuries in a relatively low speed impact.

Adam watched it, but didn't believe that things were actually that bad. So he decided that they'd run the same test with live staff members... (I am guessing Jamie wasn't there, or he would have stopped it...) BAD decision.

And that didn't include multiple people stacked on each other, or flip, or rigs, or anything else...

Worth watching and really thinking about the potential if you increase the severity of the impact. (I'll post if I can ever find it...)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[riggerrob 558]

For crash sled tests, look up the FAA report published in 1998. Sandy Reid took a variety of harnesses to the FAA crash test facility in Oklahoma City. The tested dummies with a variety of seat-belts and concluded that Hooker's pattern was the best.

[riggerrob 558]

Sadly, some skydivers are too arrogant to learn from other peoples' mistakes.

I was I wounded during that crash and (almost 7 years later) am grounded while waiting for a second knee surgery. I had to hold my tongue until my lawsuit concluded (almost 7 years after the accident). Since a lawsuit for another victim is still in the courts, I will limit my comments to repeating what I told TC in October 2008 and hearings for discovery in 2004.
Beechcraft stock seat-belts were installed in the crashed airplane, however they were so short they were incompatible with the straddle bench seats installed. Stock seat-belts were too short to wrap around my waist when I wore a tandem rig. When I suggested (to the chief pilot/ aircraft owner) that he order proper seat-belts from Hooker Harness, he got angry and dismissive. He also declined my offer to sew up skydiver-compatible seat-belts.

I wonder if seat-belts will be discussed at USPA Safety Day tomorrow??????

[dorbie 0]

riggerrob

Sadly, some skydivers are too arrogant to learn from other peoples' mistakes.

I was I wounded during that crash and (almost 7 years later) am grounded while waiting for a second knee surgery. I had to hold my tongue until my lawsuit concluded (almost 7 years after the accident). Since a lawsuit for another victim is still in the courts, I will limit my comments to repeating what I told TC in October 2008 and hearings for discovery in 2004.
Beechcraft stock seat-belts were installed in the crashed airplane, however they were so short they were incompatible with the straddle bench seats installed. Stock seat-belts were too short to wrap around my waist when I wore a tandem rig. When I suggested (to the chief pilot/ aircraft owner) that he order proper seat-belts from Hooker Harness, he got angry and dismissive. He also declined my offer to sew up skydiver-compatible seat-belts.

I wonder if seat-belts will be discussed at USPA Safety Day tomorrow??????

Wow!

[jclalor 12]

dorbie

An object lesson in use of passenger restraints when skydiving. Given the details, someone at Lodi must have read this report:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2008/a08p0242/a08p0242.asp


Skip to:
Crashworthiness and Survivability

Or:
Findings
5. Not using the restraint devices contributed to the seriousness of injuries to some passengers.

"The Bill Dause Beech 65-A90 King Air (United States registration N17SA, aircraft serial number LJ-164) took off from Pitt Meadows Airport"

If you didn't know, that's the elderly gentleman with long hair that sold you your jump ticket at Lodi. I bet he read it.

[topdocker 0]

If you think seatbelts are really going to save you in a serious accident, read this: http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/AAR0803.pdf

Skip ahead to pages 24 and beyond.
The seatbelts failed in a crash the FAA determined to have forces in the survivable range. The way most jumpers wear their seatbelts conforms to the letter of the law, but in reality they might as well put them around their necks.


top

Jump more, post less!