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PixieUK

Seat belts on jump planes

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This came from a discussion in the Incidents forum.

Who always insists on everyone on the flight wearing a seatbelt? I have frequently been in jump planes where there were people not wearing seatbelts (towards the back of the plane or seated on the floor between benches). Often other jumpers who are clipped in will hold the shoulder straps of the rigs of those who haven't got a seat belt. I had always thought the seat belts were to stop people from sliding back towards the tail of the plane but the comments in the other thread have made me reconsider.

I also have often clipped around my chest strap as the straps are often long, and are fiddly to get through leg loops. Again, after the comments on the other thread, I won't be doing this any more. I have only ever used seat belts that were elasticated straps with a pull-release shackle attached (see attached), not like commercial airline belts.

These are like loose restraints, rather than tight belts.
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

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Its an FAA requirement in the US on the surface, during takeoff and landing, and up to 1k (dz's have different altitudes where they let you take them off, some are 1500ft). If there were an emergency landing like the incident a few days ago, a properly fastened seatbelt protects you and everyone else on the plane from you meat-missiling into them, and secures the load of the airplane from shifting while the pilot is busy trying to save our lives.

Sometimes people don't want to go through the 30 second hassle because they are so busy sitting and ??? I don't even know what the reasoning is.

If folks don't want to wear it to protect yourself, wear it to protect me (and everyone else on the plane). Oh, and secure your helmet too; it only protects your head if its on there.

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Quote

If folks don't want to wear it to protect yourself, wear it to protect me (and everyone else on the plane). Oh, and secure your helmet too; it only protects your head if its on there



'nuff said. If not for yourself, then do it for everybody else. Doesn't seem like a big deal on your average load with no incidence, but if you get the displeasure of being in an aircraft mishap, you'll be glad when you and your friends aren't being meat misseled into each other. Helmets too. Clip your belt and your helmet. Takes two seconds.
Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

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Please try to re-send that picture of "elasticated straps." Loose restraints only shorten your flail arc. Zero flail arcs are best.

Holding shoulder straps of another jumpers accomplishes NOTHING.

The best place to wear a seat-belt is between your belly and your harness ... the same place you wear a set-belt in a car. Wearing a belt across your lap does the same thing as a car seat-belt. It still works if the airplane tumbles, because then the belt/harness combination prevents you form flailing all around the cabin.

Take it from some one who has been on the bottom of a "dog pile": 20 seconds to clip a seat-belt is easier than a 6 year search for a surgeon who knows how to fix an "interesting" knee injury.

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sammielu

Its an FAA requirement in the US on the surface, during takeoff and landing, and up to 1k .



I love when people make up their own interpretations of the FAR's. You should get a job at a FSDO. They do the same thing.
Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

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The only plane I have jumped that had any restraints was a military CASA and even then most people chose not to use them, I was guilty of doing this too after a jump or two as the thing had the feeling of a bus with everyone walking around inside

We do not have this regulation in SA and hence no jump planes have seat belts.
It is a good idea though. At least 2 older members of my club survived a crash in a 182 more by luck than anything else. The other 3 people in the plane were not so lucky.

Those are not the sorts of odd I like. If the jump plane had a seat belt I would wear it. I always wear a seat belt in a motor vehicle so this is no different

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We have these pull release shackles on the end of straps, so the shackle is pushed through your leg strap and then clipped back onto its own strap.
A mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original dimensions - Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr

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Yes, seat belts are a good idea, and yes, they are a lot of hassle. The most common system (at least, that I personally have seen) is this kind of 'rsl-like' system; a Pull release with a single, non-elastic lanyard. They are hell to clip on to a rig without hip rings, especially with other people already piling on top of you while you still are trying to extricate your seat belt from under the foot/legg/ass of the person sitting behind you. So yes, after a few tries you kinda stop bothering. This is especially true after finding out a few times in a row that you cannot even GET to the damn thing in the first place as some joker in the front has clipped on the wrong belt. Besides, the *wearing* (as opposed to the *presence*) of seat belts isn't mandatory at many places I've visited.

The best system I have seen so far is the one in the skydive SDC-airplanes. They are some kind of modified commercial airliner system; easy to clip on, easy to adjust, easy to stow and a pleasure to wear.

My point is, if all jump planes were fitted with a decent, user friendly seat belt system I reckon many jumpers would be a lot more inclined to wear them - mandatory or not.
"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Baksteen

This is especially true after finding out a few times in a row that you cannot even GET to the damn thing in the first place as some joker in the front has clipped on the wrong belt.



We had this last weekend with a full load on the Otter, and we sat right there on the tarmac until all the jokers had sorted their shit out. It's not rocket science...

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Granted. but that, as you yourself indicate, requires a DZ which is willing to have their precious turbine plane burning fuel while stuff is sorted out. :)

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

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Here's another add twist that goes beyond wear them;

"Is your seatbelt legal/airworthy?"

Next time you're at the DZ take a look at the seatbelts in the aircraft. And this goes way beyond outward condition.

Down by where the seat belt attach plate is, where the webbing loops around the plate and is sewn, there should be a tag. One on each seat belt half.
Now this tag can be cloth or laminated paper sewn on, or it can be a metal/plastic tag which is attached around the webbing.
This tag not only contains the seat belt part number, but who made it and, this is the most important, the TSO number.
If the tag is not there or its so worn/mangled from use that it can not be read, primarily the TSO number, then that seat belt is Unairworthy.
You must be able to read the TSO number and it will say "TSOsuch and such"

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Baksteen

Granted. but that, as you yourself indicate, requires a DZ which is willing to have their precious turbine plane burning fuel while stuff is sorted out. :)



Definitely true. I'd lump that in with the whole 'choosing a dz' process. If that fuel is more important than your customers, we'll find someplace else to jump. Dead jumpers don't buy many jump tix anyway

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Baksteen

Granted. but that, as you yourself indicate, requires a DZ which is willing to have their precious turbine plane burning fuel while stuff is sorted out. :)



While, yes, it's nice if a pilot/ground crew sorts the belts when fuling, that 1 load out of 3 or 4. Be the nice guy: if you board among the 1st in the plane, quickly pull them straight as you walk to your seating spot.
Remster

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Remster

***Granted. but that, as you yourself indicate, requires a DZ which is willing to have their precious turbine plane burning fuel while stuff is sorted out. :)



While, yes, it's nice if a pilot/ground crew sorts the belts when fuling, that 1 load out of 3 or 4. Be the nice guy: if you board among the 1st in the plane, quickly pull them straight as you walk to your seating spot.

And if the benches have been up, before putting the bench back down, do a quick scan of the belts to make sure none are trapped behind / underneath the bench such that you'll have to get everyone on the bench back up in order to free the trapped belt.

Really, I feel like most whining about seat belts is just that ... whining. Like many things in skydiving, it's a team sport... get it done and quityer bitchin'!
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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I'm in the US. As was noted, seatbelts are required to be worn by all occupants during taxi, takeoff & landing. There is no "up to certain altitude" legal requirement, but many DZs have everyone wear them up to 1k or 1500 so that they are on in case of a low altitude problem (you aren't getting out that low anyway).

I'm also a pilot & if I'm flying the plane, your ass is going to wear a seatbelt. Period.

As was noted, it isn't so much to protect the individual as it is to protect the rest of the people on the plane from squashing each other. The 92 Perris Otter crash & the Pitt Meadows King Air crash both were good demonstrations of that (secure your damned helmet too, that thing can be a missile in a crash).

I mentioned in the incidents thread about a situation at SDC Summerfest this past summer:
The organizer for the group I was with noted that a jumper on the plane wasn't wearing his seatbelt. When he pointed it out, the jumper said "It's ok, I'll be fine." The organizer said "No, it's not ok" and hollered up to the pilot to "Stop a minute! We have a seatbelt problem." The pilot stopped the plane (about to turn onto the runway) and we did the "Unhook & pass it down" shuffle.
When we took off, everyone had a seatbelt on.
I really liked it. Both the action and the overall attitude it displayed.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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PixieUK

We have these pull release shackles on the end of straps, so the shackle is pushed through your leg strap and then clipped back onto its own strap.



.................................................................................

That shackle seems to favour harnesses with hip rings.

The 1997 FAA crash test simulation was done before hip rings became popular/norm. Some even joked that Rigging Innovations was trying to bias the tests to favour harnesses with hip rings, since not every factory was sewing hip rings back in the mid-1990s. We joked aobut simply installing belts with Quick Ejector Snaps in the airplane. People with hip rings would be secure, while people with older harnesses ... could buy new harnesses from R.I.
Hah!
Hah!
Maybe we need to re-think skydiver restraint systems now that hip rings are the norm.
????
Maybe we need both seat-belts and hip ring shackles. As long as there are more restraints than jumper, it might reduce confusion during boarding and buckling. ????
Though I still favour "one belt per jumper" as a way to balance the airplane.

Opinions????

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Good point about faded, frayed and filthy labels invalidating the FAA TSO certification.
There was an angry debate - on an Australian forum - about Cessna setting a 10 year life on seat-belts. Private pilots were upset because their belts would easily last 20 years when flown once a week, always hangared, etc.
However, if you were flying tandems of a salty, ocean, beach, storing the airplane outside, etc. you would be lucky to get 5 years out of a set of seat-belts.

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riggerrob

Maybe we need to re-think skydiver restraint systems now that hip rings are the norm. Opinions????



Well, 2 of my 4 rigs do not have hip rings, including one older Talon. Better not assume hip rings.

The Tag Line (single belt with 2 connectors) system seems pretty good to me for most aircraft, (except with sideways bench seating the normal 2 belt across the lap makes sense.)

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grimmie

The Perris Otter crash April 22nd, 1992 made our entire industry aware of what not wearing a seat belt would do to jumpers in a crash. Helmets and seat belts would have upped the survivor rate. IMHO:(



To those where its either not required or enforced...

I started jumping in 1990. There was 1 seat belt on the plane, for the 1 person coming back down. Why would you want them, we're getting out anyway and in case of a bailout, they'd just be in the way. "Don't be wearing one if you're between me and the door" was the attitude of the SkyGods...

Then Perris and a couple others happened. Dead skydivers crushed by their friends, not killed directly by the crash. Never high enough the even think about bailing out... you're just cargo and awaiting impact.

The FAA noticed.

There was a great outcry. Costs would go through the roof, they would never be used, they'd catch on gear, they'd be involved in extraction complications, they'd cause exit hangups, the industry would collapse and only Michael Crichton could write the final chapter of this disaster...

Ok... some of that has happened. I've tried to exit a Cessna with my belt on (*blush*). Some people don't like to wear them. And I'm sure the plane owners can tell you what the additional costs are.

But the world did not end, the new jumpers here believe this has ALWAYS been normal, and at my local DZ's its just what you do. The transition from panic and outrage to normal safe behavior was actually fairly quick.

If you've never been there, look at the pics of the recent MINOR plane incidents and imagine what happened INSIDE that aircraft. Now, go ask your DZO why they don't have them in the plane. Ask your pilot why he wants meat missiles pointed at him when he has to put it down fast, ask your buddies who wants be at the bottom of the pile when 5 of us land on him, and ask your local skygod how good he is at landing on his head when the plane flips.

Most of us have imagined that we would go diving after an unconscious friend to deploy his 'chute and safe his life. But plane crashes are MORE common. Putting your seat belt on is statistically MORE LIKELY to save your buddy.

To me, like reserves (once optional) and AAD's (still optional in most places), this just makes sense... but in this case it only works to protect "me" if we are ALL wearing them...

As Nike used to say... Just Do It.


JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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Seat belts need to be buckled around your waist (with benches) or through a part of your harness away from your handles (i.e., leg strap) before takeoff. No exceptions. Then remove them at 1500 feet (or as low as 1000 feet if you would jump at that altitude in an emergency) so you can exit the aircraft in case of an emergency that occurs high enough for you to safely jump from the plane. Helmets also need to be secured on your head or secured by your chest strap or seat belt for takeoff; otherwise they become projectiles in a crash.
Oil Gas Safety Council values the contribution Safety Professionals make to achieve the vision of accident free and safer workplace.
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cgriff

*** This is especially true after finding out a few times in a row that you cannot even GET to the damn thing in the first place as some joker in the front has clipped on the wrong belt.



We had this last weekend with a full load on the Otter, and we sat right there on the tarmac until all the jokers had sorted their shit out. It's not rocket science...
Lucky bastard. One of the DZ's I frequent has seatbelts in their planes, and requires you to use them (at least, there's a sign at the manifest that says you must use them). But few people give a fuck, and even less are willing to wait boarding until you've managed to properly secure the seatbelt.

The problem with it is that it only works if at least those in power care enough to get nasty. At that DZ, they don't and people routinely don't have seatbelts, don't secure helmets and all that shit. Plus, they board the plane while you still need the room, preventing you from securing the seatbelt. Nobody gives a fuck, and that's the fastest way to stop giving a fuck yourself. Especially new jumpers, who still view the old-timers as all-knowing. all-perfect, all-capable skydivers, get a very wrong impression by this.

Please tell me, where can I order a pilot (C208-qualified) that actually cares about this?:ph34r:

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