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hackish

Chopping a 2 out downplane?

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Just had a thought. If you had a downplane with 2 out you'd chop your main. What would happen if your reserve is on the bottom? Do you run a significant risk of a self wrap or is the centrifical force generally enough to stop from going into lineslack and potentially falling into the reserve when the main is chopped? Your feet would be facing the sky when it levelled out so do you end up doing a front or backflip in the harness?

-Michael

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I'm a little confused on the angles and directions implied here.

Why would it be much different than a normal downplane? As soon as separation is initiated, the jumper just swings down under his canopy as the canopy levels out. Due to the initial dive the canopy would temporarily plane out to less descent than normal descending flight.

Or were you thinking more of a dragplane, say if there's a HUGE mismatch between main and reserve, like a 302 Parafoil and a PD113 perhaps? In any case CRW people do successfully drop the bottom person on a dragplane and they do avoid falling into their canopy.

Sure I could see that because of the messed up body position one might spin one's body into line twists, if the reserve hadn't already twisted when it first came out, depending on how the 2-out happened. And there would be a chance of getting feet in the lines since the small reserve would be down low somewhere below the horizon, before one chopped.

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In a down plane both canopies are pointed away from each other and eventually end up pointing down more horizontal to you being vertical. Even though the canopies will accelerate you should still be falling faster so you would always stay slightly below the canopies. When you cut away you will just swing under the reserve like a pendulum
That is unless you are talking about the situtation that pchapman was talking about two very different sized main and reserve with the reserve being much smaller than the main. Even in that situation if you cutaway when the down plane starts you would be fine.
Kirk

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Your feet would be facing the sky when it levelled out



:D:Donly if your reserve risers are attached to your feet

this config is not recommended in the finer publications:P

think about the config of the gear and physics...

either the canopies are both down and you are pointing sideways (and vertical) - which means there are 2 canopies with unbalanced risers -thus they won't stay planed very long - and the canopies won't be very "down" rather than cutting across

or one of the canopies (at least) has a twist in it

either way, you don't just line up under the main in the plane of the lines.

you cut away the main and then swing and untwist under the reserve

If I had to choose a canopy transfer (at least up high) this would be the one.

Edit - acknowledging the scenario with the huge mismatch of main and reserve - that will not be very 'down' either, but will look more like a drag plane - one canopy will still likely have a half twist

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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What he said. If the canopies are in a downplane, even an unlevel downplane, you'll just swing through like normal. I've also done and watched several dragplanes (one canopy "upside down", which is what it sounds like you're describing) and the exit path is almost identical to a downplane, with the exception that you end up leaving in the opposite direction of the heading you were just facing. That's fun, as is dropping the bottom two canopies of a dragplane into a downplane.

Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

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Just had a thought. If you had a downplane with 2 out you'd chop your main. What would happen if your reserve is on the bottom? Do you run a significant risk of a self wrap or is the centrifical force generally enough to stop from going into lineslack and potentially falling into the reserve when the main is chopped? Your feet would be facing the sky when it levelled out so do you end up doing a front or backflip in the harness?

-Michael



If I remember correctly, the Knights had pretty good luck steering downplanes into side-by-sides in 2-out test jumps.

And who couldn't land a side-by-side?;)
Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

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Michael,

I had two out on my 68th jump. It started as a nice side by side which I was going to just land straight ahead. As I got closer to the airport there was a hanger that was in my way, so I wanted to gently turn about 15 degrees to avoid it. Pretty quickly I went from a side by side to a downplane. Also, pretty quickly I chopped. It was a smooth transition to reserve only. If I remember correctly the main was a 190 and the reserve was a 219.

Hope this helps

Mo

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...As I got closer to the airport there was a hanger that was in my way...



:D You had a hanger in your way and this caused you to want to turn? Was their a shirt an pair of pants hanging on it??


Anyway... Hackish... I suppose you could choose to land a downplane, but I doubt the outcome would be to your liking. So, if you're in a 2-out situation that turns into any sort of downplane... dragplane... or what not, if given sufficient altitude, why would you not chop the main?

One of the first malfunctions I ever saw as a newb & wound-up chasing the guy's cut-away & freebag down was a jumper that opened low enough to scare his FXC AAD into firing at about the same time he threw out his main. He wound up with two out in a spinning downplane under his main and reserve. He chopped his main from that condition and would-up under his reserve and landed uneventfully. He was wired for sound afterwards, but otherwise "okay".

If you want to learn more about downplanes or dragplanes, I'd suggest finding some CRW Dogs to talk to. If you ever run into an old bloke that goes by the handle "Philly" around a SoCal DZ one day, ask him what a Ghost Plane is and what its like to land one. ;)

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That's fun, as is dropping the bottom two canopies of a dragplane into a downplane.



Yeah, did one of those as my yay-I-finally-finished-my-B-license-on-CRW-jumps-graduation-jump :) Took me long enough to get my B I had >300 jumps, the problem was the wingloading of the other canopies for my required 4ways so until I could jump a lightning 126 not much was happening, that dragplane jump alone was worth it though :)
The load after I was doing an intentional cutaway and got some flackfrom the crw guys on the same load for not arranging a ghostplane, too bad, didn't feel like organising one on the way up [:/] Still on my list though i want to be the one chopping :P

Had my very own personal downplane @ 50 jumps, guess it must've rubbed off :S:ph34r:

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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The question was not whether or not to chop, more that if the reserve were pointing down with respect to the rig the reserve risers would be passing down your back and the mains would be at your head. If you chop the main I was curious about how the transition of being suspended by the two would go when one was suddenly chopped. More specifically if the chop had a good chance of inducing lineslack which could obviously do bad things with your last chance for survival (reserve).

-Michael

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.... If I have a two out and it downlines what is there to think about???
( this is just what i was taught )

IS there any reason you wouldn't cut away or even think twice about it?
Wouldnt thinking about the postions of your canopies ....which one higher than the other ect ....just waist valuable time?
.....And you thought Kiwis couldn't fly!!!!

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IS there any reason you wouldn't cut away or even think twice about it?
Wouldnt thinking about the postions of your canopies ....which one higher than the other ect ....just waist valuable time?



I would think about it to see first how valuable the time I have is. I like doing hop & pops at full altitude so if it happened then the decisions may be different. A reserve can only save you if it's inflated over your head. Since it is possible to steer a canopy into a downplane I assume it is also possible to steer one out of a downplane.

-Michael

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1) What is the probable reason that you have a downplane? (HINT, 2out)
2) What it the most likely reason that you have 2 canopies? (HINT, Cypres fire)
3) What is the most likely reason you had a Cypres fire? (HINT, you were low)

So you're low, probably having lost altitude awareness and only seconds from impact, JUST CHOP THE FUCKING DOWNPLANE!

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I would think about it to see first how valuable the time I have is. I like doing hop & pops at full altitude so if it happened then the decisions may be different. A reserve can only save you if it's inflated over your head. Since it is possible to steer a canopy into a downplane I assume it is also possible to steer one out of a downplane.



That may well prove to be a fatal assumption. I've seen entanglements and wraps that made made my hair stand on end clear. I've also seen things I figured were no big deal turn into a complete mess literally faster than one could say ball of shit. All were from altitude.

I'd rather follow a cutaway main safely to the ground than impact with it, but YMMV. If you find yourself doing one-way CRW in anything other than a stable biplane, cutaway the main. Use gentle toggle inputs to the dominant canopy in order to steer a stable biplane.

Bob

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Mr. Hackish, I don't think you have paid attention to the folks who have tried to explain this to you. Your original post showed that you had an incorrect concept of what a downplane is. Your idea that one canopy is above the other is not correct. In a downplane, both canopies are about level, they are about 180 degrees apart and are both flying straight down, with the noses pointed toward the ground. You are in the middle, with both canopies pulling very forcefully in opposite directions. As long as the main risers are not tangled with anything, cutting away will make the main risers and canopy shoot quickly away from you and your body simply swings under the reserve. The reserve remains fully inflated with tension on the lines throughout this entire sequence.

When a two-out begins, the canopies are either front-and-back or side-by-side. Cutting away the main in either of these configurations is risky because of the closeness of the canopies. If any part of the main, riser, toggle, etc. catches on the reserve as it is departing, it can cause a very bad problem that you may not be able to fix. Steering into a downplane places the lift vectors of the two canopies as far apart from each other as possible, so that when released, the main (and its parts) go directly away from the reserve rather than sliding up past it.

Steering "out" of a downplane is possible, but has a good possibility of completely tangling both canopies.

I hope this helps,

Kevin
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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Thanks, that better explains it. I've never been in this situation so I didn't know that you'd be suspended below them. I read somewhere that downplanes can fly at 100+mph so I assumed you'd almost be in freefall. Maybe that was incorrect.

-Michael

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...I didn't know that you'd be suspended below them. I read somewhere that downplanes can fly at 100+mph so I assumed you'd almost be in freefall. Maybe that was incorrect.



You're not really below them, you're right in between them. The lines (risers) are connected to you, but the canopies are out to each side. Both canopies are pointing nose-down at the ground, so it's possible to be going very fast toward the ground. I don't know if it's 100 mph, but I know you damn sure wouldn't want to arrive at the ground in that configuration.

When CRWDogs do downplanes the canopies are attached to two different people who have to hold onto each other. This can be very hard because the lift from both canopies is directly away from the people, so the force to hold the people together can be hundreds of pounds. With one person on a two-out downplane, that force is held by the harness, so you don't feel it.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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real good explanation kk... thanks.

now if a 2 out goes from a side by side, to a point where say, the main is splitting and about to head down...... and a cutaway has been decided on..... does it help or hurt??? to go right hand on the cutaway pad and left hand on the outside toggle, or outside rear riser, of the reserve , to further initiate a move away from the main as the 3 rings release???. ..
i can see that we wouldn't wanna have a hand on a main toggle, as we cut away... but how about the reserve ..?
or is it better to chop, then assess the situation, and get onto toggles or risers as needed?


jt

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I've had one of these, (not AAD-Related) and I was glad that I had some CRW experience to work my way through it. Probably not really necessary, it just makes you more comfortable doing weird shit with canopies.

Mine opened as a side-by-side. Without unstowing any brakes, I just used the outside rear riser of the reserve to start it moving away from the main. As it moves, it naturally assumes the downplane configuration. Since I was sort of low at that point, I didn't want to spend much time in a full downplane, because they come down very fucking fast. As the canopies reached about 45 degree separation, I could see that the main lines were all well away from the reserve and the force of the main was pulling away from the reserve. That looked good enough to me, so I chopped it.

Some things to remember.
- Take your time. Figure out what you're going to do. Don't get into a hurry.
- If you're extremely low, you may want to just land the two canopies.
- Try to steer the reserve away from the main, rather than vice-versa, so that you're not holding a main riser when you cut away.

Kevin K.
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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