Vigils in working rigs?

[livendive 8]

So I've got to buy several AADs to replace dead Cypres-1s, and my gut feeling is that Vigils have now been around long enough to finish their, umm, field testing. So who's got them in working (i.e. tandem/student/rental) rigs? How has that worked out for you, and would you buy more?

FYI - I'm not looking for fanboi replies, be they Vigil or Cypres proponents, just real-world experience from those using them in a working environment.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[spootch 0]

Our dzo swears by them, we now run vigils in half the student and rental gear. No problems with either brand of aad's as far as i know . give it another 4 years and i'm sure they all will be vigils.

[kj126 0]

Our DZ has been converting for some time now, half the Tandems and student rigs have been transferred from Cypress over to Vigil.

2 things to consider is making sure rental gear is set properly due to the multiple settings, Tandem,student and Pro.

And if you ever place them in a vehicle, TURN THEM OFF!
We have had several fire while leaving the DZ which is atop a hill with about a 600 ft drop only a few miles away.

So its all ground issue's and nothing while airborne.

positives are not having to separate the rental and student gear, just change the setting.

I Am Sofa King We Todd Did!!

[Jumpjonno 0]

Yep got Vigil 2s in almost all of our centre equipment now, When the remaining cypres's die out after 12 years then we will be replacing them with vigil 2s aswell. The reason we went for vigils is that if I have an aad go down during a jumping day in any of our equipment like the cypres batts need changing I can reove any vigil and stick it in any gear, tandem, student hire etc. in about 20 mins and have that gear back on the road earning money.
We also went for Vigils because I dont want to pay 200 euros dollars whatever every 4 years for a service and also have my gear with out an AAd for 2 weeks..
Have had our vigils for about 6 months now and 200 jumps approx each, not had any problems with any of them.
Like it was said before you need to be carefull that people hiring / using your gear are not changing the settings. At our DZ anyone hiring our kit gets a gear check before boarding the aircraft to guarantee they not jumping a hire kit set on Tandem or student etc.

Hope this helps Jonno

[verticalflier 0]

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Yep got Vigil 2s in almost all of our centre equipment now, When the remaining cypres's die out after 12 years then we will be replacing them with vigil 2s aswell. The reason we went for vigils is that if I have an aad go down during a jumping day in any of our equipment like the cypres batts need changing I can reove any vigil and stick it in any gear, tandem, student hire etc. in about 20 mins and have that gear back on the road earning money.
We also went for Vigils because I dont want to pay 200 euros dollars whatever every 4 years for a service and also have my gear with out an AAd for 2 weeks..
Have had our vigils for about 6 months now and 200 jumps approx each, not had any problems with any of them.
Like it was said before you need to be carefull that people hiring / using your gear are not changing the settings. At our DZ anyone hiring our kit gets a gear check before boarding the aircraft to guarantee they not jumping a hire kit set on Tandem or student etc.

Hope this helps Jonno

The fear of people switching modes is valid. We have seen incidents of people jumping with their Vigils set to wrong mode resulting in having 2 canopies out, etc. I guess having an option of password protecting your unit from just anyone having access to changing its mode would be a step in a right direction. Think "dzo parental control" on student etc. rigs.
As for myself I am sticking to Cypres2, and having it checked and refurbished every 4 years is a big part of my choice.

[diablopilot 2]

No problems with them in Tandem and Student rigs. Make sure they are shut of if the rigs travel, as my only problem came from a rig that left the DZ and the was returned with the unit still on.

I make very sure that all students learn that "PRO" is the only thing they can see on the display and still be ready to jump. Anything else and they need to seek the help of staff.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[livendive 8]

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No problems with them in Tandem and Student rigs. Make sure they are shut of if the rigs travel, as my only problem came from a rig that left the DZ and the was returned with the unit still on.

I make very sure that all students learn that "PRO" is the only thing they can see on the display and still be ready to jump. Anything else and they need to seek the help of staff.

Thanks (to you, and everyone else too). It sounds like you're as big a fan of student modes as I am.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[guppykf 0]

A little off subject, but fairly related. If you aren't a swooper and you have a low wing loading why would you want the AAD set to PRO, wouldn't you set it at student just to be a little safer?

My thought process is if you dont have anything over your head by 12-1300' the sooner something gets over your head the better....am I right in my thinking or nuts?

THRIVING IN MY DASH!!

[ozzy13 0]

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A little off subject, but fairly related. If you aren't a swooper and you have a low wing loading why would you want the AAD set to PRO, wouldn't you set it at student just to be a little safer?

Altitude is only one of the factors. Speed is another. From vigil's web site

45mph (20m/sec) for “STUDENT” and 78mph (35m/sec) for “PRO” or “TANDEM” Page 21http://www.vigil.aero/files/images/Engels.pdf

The aad will activate at a slower speed in student mode. That is why (one of the reasons) I tell my students not to spiral their canopy below their hard deck. (2500) If they do, one of their issues could be a two out situation. So if you decide to keep it in student mode be aware of this please.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[IanHarrop 37]

from the manual:
---
3.3.1. “PRO” Mode
The Vigil® releases at 840 Ft. (256 meters) and below till 150 Ft. (46 meters),
if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 35 m/sec. (78 mph or 126 km/h)*
3.3.2. “STUDENT” Mode
The Vigil® releases at 1040 Ft. (317 meters) and below till 150 Ft. (46 meters),
if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 20 m/sec. (45 mph or 72 km/h)*
3.3.3. “TANDEM” Mode
The Vigil® releases at 2040 Ft. (622 meters) and below till 150 Ft. (46 meters),
if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 35 m/sec. (78 mph or 126 km/h)*
---
http://www.vigil.aero/manuals

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[ozzy13 0]

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My thought process is if you dont have anything over your head by 12-1300' the sooner something gets over your head the better....am I right in my thinking or nuts?

If you dont have something over your head by 12-1300 ft pull silver and fast. Dont wait for the ADD to work.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[erdnarob 1]

First of all the Vigil 2 will cost you 70.00$ per year while the Cypres 2 will cost 175.00$. In other words the Cypres costs 250% per year what the the Vigil will cost you per year.

Proof:

1) Cypres 2 : (1499.00 + 2 x 300.00)$ /12yr = 175.00$/yr
2) Vigil 2 : 1399.00$ /20yr = 70.00$/yr

Nothing can justify such a difference. Mandatory maintenance advantage has been grossly exaggerated. With a self testing modern device, there is no need for that. The Vigil 2 does not require mandatory maintenance. However, you can decide anytime or when you are not jumping to send it back for a check up.

I have checked with a system analysis engineer of the National research council of Canada who told me that provided the software is OK, there is virtually no chance for a self testing device (ie. AAD's) to fail when the self testing tells you everything is OK. Testing of the Vigil 2 is BATteries OK, CUTter OK, CTRL (control) OK in clear language on the display. If one item fails the Vigil 2 switches off.
The Vigil 2 shows you the mode you choose (PRO, STUDENT, TANDEM) and this mode stays on the display as long as the device is switched on.

Have a Vigil 2 in your hands and compare with other competitors AAD's and the difference is quite obvious. The Vigil 2 has a sturdy construction, is ergonomic, cooked paint covered and has Kevlar reinforced cable. I have Vigil AAD since 2005 and it has worked exactly as designed.

Note: It is preferable to switch off the device when your skydiving day is over especially if you have to drive uphill and downhill back home.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mjosparky 3]

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Mandatory maintenance advantage has been grossly exaggerated.

According to whom?

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system analysis engineer of the National research council of Canada

How many AAD type devices has he personally been involved in designing?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Skybear 0]

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First of all the Vigil 2 will cost you 70.00$ per year while the Cypres 2 will cost 175.00$. In other words the Cypres costs 250% per year what the the Vigil will cost you per year.

Proof:

1) Cypres 2 : (1499.00 + 2 x 300.00)$ /12yr = 175.00$/yr
2) Vigil 2 : 1399.00$ /20yr = 70.00$/yr

Nothing can justify such a difference.

I do not know if it can be justified by the following, but it is at least worth to spend a few thoughts on it: With the Cypres 2 you get a full 12,5-year warranty. If the unit quits working for whatever reason, except obvious mistreatment, it will be replaced for free. With the Vigil 2 you get a one-year warranty. Thereafter youe have to pay for every repair that might become necessary within it's ESTIMATED life-span of 20 years. Comparing costs means putting a bet on the Vigil versus a guarantee on the Cypres.

[spootch 0]

Quote

Quote

First of all the Vigil 2 will cost you 70.00$ per year while the Cypres 2 will cost 175.00$. In other words the Cypres costs 250% per year what the the Vigil will cost you per year.

Proof:

1) Cypres 2 : (1499.00 + 2 x 300.00)$ /12yr = 175.00$/yr
2) Vigil 2 : 1399.00$ /20yr = 70.00$/yr

Nothing can justify such a difference.

I do not know if it can be justified by the following, but it is at least worth to spend a few thoughts on it: With the Cypres 2 you get a full 12,5-year warranty. If the unit quits working for whatever reason, except obvious mistreatment, it will be replaced for free. With the Vigil 2 you get a one-year warranty. Thereafter youe have to pay for every repair that might become necessary within it's ESTIMATED life-span of 20 years. Comparing costs means putting a bet on the Vigil versus a guarantee on the Cypres.

with an 7 1/2 year spread. I'm willing to pony up

[pchapman 261]

I got a bit of info a friend who has been a rigger for about 3 yrs at a DZ with around 12 Sigma rigs, sporting a mix of Vigils (all v. 2 I think) and Cypreses (v. 1 & 2).

One Cypres (version uncertain) had a problem and went off for repair. Two Vigil 2's had a problem and were sent off. (I'm not sure but I assume the AAD Vigil company covered the repair costs, to maintain goodwill.)

One local jumper had a Vigil 1 that had an error and went in for servicing.

For some years earlier there were fewer tandem rigs and they had Cypreses only. As an instructor there and occasional rigger, I hadn't heard of other AAD failures back then.

So neither company's products have been perfect, and the data isn't precise, but Vigils have unfortunately been giving a bit more of a problem than expected, especially given that they are the newer Vigil 2.

Just one DZ's experience.

[diablopilot 2]

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I have checked with a system analysis engineer of the National research council of Canada who told me that provided the software is OK, there is virtually no chance for a self testing device (ie. AAD's) to fail when the self testing tells you everything is OK.

Have him point a gun at his head, and attach a device prevents the the firing pin from striking the primer and causing a bullet to be fired. Now tell him he must pull the trigger, and he must do this once a day, every day.

How's he feel about self tests and no maintenance.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[erdnarob 1]

It is not a question of how many AAD's he has seen. It is a question of risk evaluation with modern technology and software. (That is why they are called System analysis Engineers). Components used by AAD manufacturers are used in different other devices. Only the software is designed especially for the AAD. And this software is certainly not as much as complicated than the software for MSN Office 2008 for instance. AAD software is dealing with about 7 parameters (mainly: zero calibration, pressure, rate of change of pressure, electrical continuity in the cutter, state of batteries, 260 ft equivalent of pressure differential between chest and back when on your belly and time...(+ the firing conditions in memory and when to arm the device) while MNS Office sofware works with thousands of parameters.
The one year guaranty on Vigil is to protect the company from abuse. Vigil will likely repair or change faulty components at no cost provided the device has been used normally. If you read the Cypres user's manual disclaimer, they mean about the same thing while not accepting any responsibility in case of malfunction. On the Cypres 1 manual, there is a 12 months guarantee too. I still have to check in the Cypres 2 manual.
Also, a lot of people behave like an AAD would be the ultimate tool to stay alive. This is a wrong attitude, one should jump without thinking about it after it has been switched on with the proper mode. IT IS A BACK UP DEVICE. Don't make the AAD's psychological crutches. If by any chance you have to make few jumps without having an AAD for whatever reason, I guarantee you that your main will not "see" the difference.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[mjosparky 3]

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IT IS A BACK UP DEVICE. Don't make the AAD's psychological crutches. If by any chance you have to make few jumps without having an AAD for whatever reason, I guarantee you that your main will not "see" the difference.

You’re preaching to the choir. I probably have over 2000 jumps without an AAD. The extensive use of electronic crutches has removed skydiving from Darwin’s world. As a result look what it has turned into.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[TonyJ 0]

I have checked with a system analysis engineer of the National research council of Canada who told me that provided the software is OK, there is virtually no chance for a self testing device (ie. AAD's) to fail when the self testing tells you everything is OK.

i can tell you the air bags in your car self tests many times a second... the controller can tell if the bag is connected through a resistor in the squib.. now just cause it self tests doesnt mean its going to work when required...the controller has to supply voltage and ground to the squib circuit, then what ever type of expanding gas is used has to work... though it has a better chance then if it fails the test... tony

[skyfreek 1]

the dz i work at has about 25ish vigil 1, and about 7-10 vigil 2. we replaced all of the cutters with type 3, which come standard on v2`s. entering our 5 year on some of them, and no low battery signal on any of them yet. the v2 is a nice slim design for riggers too! no factory testing, no expensive mailing back to factory. plus you can keep track of jump # on each rig.. my 2 pennies