Local DGIT

[bbrockwell 0]

I was on a large-way recently with a local DGIT, and he scared me. This post is made as much in his interest as it is in mine.

He's in the skygod phase, and we've all been there. But the problem is: what do we do about him in the mean time? How do we see to it that he gets the necessary experience, makes the necessary mistakes, but at the same time prevent him from killing himself or one of us?

His behavior has been worrying the local jumpers for quite some time, and after this recent jump, it's worrying me enough to make this post. Have any of you dealt with a DGIT?

How?

[jsaxton 0]

In your opinion what behavior(s) classify this person as a DGIT?

[bbrockwell 0]

I'd like to avoid going into too much detail at the risk of revealing this person's identity in a public forum. My point in making this post isn't to embarrass or degrade him but to find a way to help him make himself - and all of us - safer. That said, suffice it to say that my opinion is shared by many of the local experienced jumpers, and has been for quite some time.

Sorry :)

[NWFlyer 2]

So if many people share this opinion, who is inviting him on larger ways?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[bbrockwell 0]

The large-way was a tracking dive. Most of the local jumpers (including me) consider it a safe practice to invite even relatively inexperienced jumpers, with a proper briefing, onto such jumps. My focus in this thread, though, isn't so much to discuss the merits and inadequacies of this philosophy as it is to discuss managing the DGIT. What should we do about him??

[jsaxton 0]

I think it will be easier to address each DGIT behavior individually. For example:

Corking: Teach proper recovery
Diving: Teach stadium approach
Canopy traffic/Landing pattern: ...

This is why I asked what made you think this person is a DGIT.

[DougH 270]

Grow some cojones and tell him.

"Listen dude if you don't change the way you are doing things you are going to kill yourself or some one else. Either you knock it off or you can find some other dz to kill yourself at"

I like the idea of adressing each of the dangerous things he does seperately sounds like a pretty constructive way to get your point across.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[bbrockwell 0]

Believe it or not, he's had complaints about him in all three of these areas.

[bbrockwell 0]

He's been talked to before, repeatedly. This is part of the problem. Maybe he hasn't been talked to so harshly, but he's definitely had it laid out to him that his behavior is out of line and dangerous. But it almost seems as though, every time he's talked to, he looks at more as a badge of honor, another notch on his belt, than a serious warning.

But you can't just kick him off the DZ. He's a good guy, firstly, and we don't want to ostracize him. But more importantly as regards safety, if you ban him from the DZ, he goes to another DZ and does the same thing around new people that haven't already been warned about him and don't know who he is.

Correcting his behavior so that we can keep him around and keep him in the air is the right solution in my opinion. But how do you do it?

[DougH 270]

Quote

But you can't just kick him off the DZ. He's a good guy, firstly, and we don't want to ostracize him. But more importantly as regards safety, if you ban him from the DZ, he goes to another DZ and does the same thing around new people that haven't already been warned about him and don't know who he is.

Bullshit. If he was a good guy, and you have "repeatedly" talked to him then he would have changed his ways. Either you haven't told him the right way, or he is just a dangerous asshole.

Either way I would be glad to see him go, and I would call the surrounding dz's to let them know he is coming.

You correct his behavior by laying down the law. Ban him for a day the first time, then ban him for a weekend, then ban him for a month... then for the season.

Sounds like your S&TA and DZO, as well as your fellow jumpers really needs to man up.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[dragon2 2]

Quote

Believe it or not, he's had complaints about him in all three of these areas.

If you can knock some sense in a jumper like that, I'd be amazed. So far I know DGITs to: turn so low the canopy lands first and of course right in front of me, land out a lot, end up in intensive care, ruining rigs without ending up in intensive care, pulling below a formation (!!) when low, getting totally lost on a tracking dive, land out some more for no reason, break some more bones, open BASE canopy while jumping headdown from 60m (150 so it is" when in fact it was a 128, blaming the canopy/the weather/... instead of themselves for problems, etc etc etc.
Basically I'm waiting for the next "slight problem" with a few of these guys.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[NWFlyer 2]

I'm of the mind that people who have demonstrated unsafe in-air skills AND don't respond to constructive feedback with improvements in the next skydive have just earned their ticket OFF of larger skydives till they can demonstrate improved skills.

I'm still a relative newbie, and welcome feedback. I got called out in front of a 15-ish way last summer for a lazy track because I scared someone else on the jump. I had about 300 jumps then. I didn't particularly appreciate the feedback style, but I definitely deserved the feedback, and it was a wake-up call that I'd been getting complacent on my track. Next jump and every subsequent jump my tracks have been focused and solid. The difference was that I already knew how to track well enough to be in the air with 15 people, I was just getting lazy. In his case, he may not have the skills to be with such a big group - he may actually need to dial it back a notch to jump with smaller groups for a while till he has the skills.

If you can talk to someone and they are willing to learn and improve - no need to sit them down/kick them off/punish them/whatever. But if you give them an opportunity to improve/learn and they don't take it, well quit giving them the reward of the cool jumps.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[skybytch 259]

Quote

But the problem is: what do we do about him in the mean time? How do we see to it that he gets the necessary experience, makes the necessary mistakes, but at the same time prevent him from killing himself or one of us?

Don't jump with him. Tell him why you aren't jumping with him. He'll either figure it out or become a skysurfer.

[yamtx73 0]

Quote

Quote

But the problem is: what do we do about him in the mean time? How do we see to it that he gets the necessary experience, makes the necessary mistakes, but at the same time prevent him from killing himself or one of us?

Do jump with him. Tell him why you are jumping with him. He'll either figure it out improve his skills or become a skysurfer.

Fixed it for ya... I like this answer better...

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[wmw999 2,370]

What she said. Only have virtually everyone do the same thing at the same time, and then have the person he's most likely to respect offer to go up with him one-on-one for jumping.

Yes, it costs. But if you're not willing to kick him off the DZ, you need to invest something to avoid those other nasty medical costs if he hurts someone else.

And no matter what, he's going to think you're assholes, at least for awhile. Such is life.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[chuckakers 422]

Of all the replies so far, I haven't heard anyone ask, so I will.

Where's the DZO, S&TA, Chief Instructor, and DZ manager in all this? As a former DZO, I can assure you I would have been the first to address the problem(s).

Ultimately the DZO has to make the call on safety issues when they don't get worked out at the jumper level. Jumpers should be able to depend on that.


I understand everyone's desire to be patient and help the guy along, but when repeated attempts to fix the problem aren't working - which sounds like the case here - someone of authority from the DZ needs to step in.

What exactly needs done isn't clear here, as we don't know all the details. I can say for sure that when the actions of anyone on the DZ threaten the safety of other jumpers, it must be dealt with - even at the loss of a customer.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Baksteen 84]

Soo.. as a newbie, how do you handle DGITs, except for never listening to their advice?

I mean, if they refuse to listen to their instructors, why'd they listen to me?
What can I say, except stuff to soothe my conscience with ("at least I told them so..") for when they bounce?

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[davelepka 4]

Quote

He's been talked to before, repeatedly. This is part of the problem. Maybe he hasn't been talked to so harshly, but he's definitely had it laid out to him that his behavior is out of line and dangerous

This is an area where the other jumpers at the DZ have failed. When you try to be 'nice' it seems as if it's not that big of a deal. However, if he is on track to injure himself, or worse, another jumper, than it is a big deal, and that needs to be reflected in your choice of words and actions. Conduct yourself in manner in-line with the severity of the situation.

Skydiving is just all fun and games, up to a point. Beyond that point, it's dirty, and messy, and ruins (or ends) lives. Anyone who deosn't seem to understand or respect that point needs to be immediately corrected or thrown off the DZ.

What happens when this guy hurts or kills another jumper or a student? Would that be good for the DZ? Would you still think he was a 'good guy'?

People often times mistake these people as 'friends'. Their actions in-air should always trump their behavior on the ground. There is no excuse, and there should be no tolerence for acting like an asshole in the sky.

[airtwardo 7]

What can I say, except stuff to soothe my conscience with ("at least I told them so..") for when they bounce?

Quote

...You can say~ "Last one in the POOL, is a rotten egg!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[BoilingMidnight 0]

Quote

Do jump with him. Tell him why you are jumping with him. He'll either figure it out improve his skills or become a skysurfer.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
--Albert Einstein

Beyond the obvious applicability of the above quote to your "feel-good" strategy, I am humbled by your reckless disregard for the safety of other skydivers. It's obvious to everyone that the man is immune to both instruction and self-examination. But I guess we have to endanger everyone else to appease your dream quest for Kumbaya.

"Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin."

[Snowflake 0]

A change of scenery can do wonders for some!!

Had a guy like your describing. Last jump I did with him he came under the formation at full track, and I mean right under us. He got torn a new asshole and the cold shoulder after that jump. He left for another drop zone and he did fine he got his coach rating and none of the experienced skydivers there had a problem with him. This still amazes me, because when he was jumping with us no one and I mean no one could tell him anything. I watched him argue with a very experienced skydiver about why he wasn't wrong for tracking under the formation

Like I said a change of scenery can do wonders for some

[yamtx73 0]

Quote

Quote

Do jump with him. Tell him why you are jumping with him. He'll either figure it out improve his skills or become a skysurfer.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
--Albert Einstein

Beyond the obvious applicability of the above quote to your "feel-good" strategy, I am humbled by your reckless disregard for the safety of other skydivers. It's obvious to everyone that the man is immune to both instruction and self-examination. But I guess we have to endanger everyone else to appease your dream quest for Kumbaya.

And your obvious desire to ostracize him and push him away will make him go to another dz where they don't know him and he'll keep doing the same shit until someone DOES get hurt... what does that solve? Not a dam'n thing.... take him up on 2 & 3 ways and work on his skills... oh, wait.. I forgot, skydivers don't pay it forward or help those who obviously need it....

The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers...

[frost 1]

Quote

Don't jump with him. Tell him why you aren't jumping with him. He'll either figure it out or become a skysurfer.

Perfect! Exactly what my buddies and i did to our low pulling friend, who was also scary in freefall - we told him we wont jump with him anymore. It hurt his feelings, yes, but he corrected himself. To OP: if that works, watch him closely though - they tend to slip back to their old ways in a while :)

[davelepka 4]

Quote

.... take him up on 2 & 3 ways and work on his skills... oh, wait.. I forgot, skydivers don't pay it forward or help those who obviously need it....

You are in error in your thinking. In this case, you pay it forward to the other jumpers on the DZ by dealing with the guy in the proper manner. It's been indicated that he has been spoken to on many occasions, and he did not stop the behavior that was causing concern.

This person is a danger to himself, other jumpers at the DZ, and the DZ itself. He has been given an opportunity to correct his actions, which he chose not to take.

This is not the special olympics. Everyone is not a winner. The best we can do is to ensure that the losers are not other, well meaning jumpers at the DZ, but the person causing the problems. If you don't want to play by the rules, then you can't play on our playground.

Your concern that he will simply travel to another DZ is easy to handle. A brief call with a heads-up for the other area DZOs will let them know to keep an eye out for the guy. Even in the middle of Florida or Sol Cal, this would only amount to 10 or 15 calls, and should take less than an hour total.

[DougH 270]

Bingo, I agree 100%.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P