Freefly jumpsuit for belly flying?

[FFlyer 0]

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I wasn't trying to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, I simply disagreed with the message (and the tone) of the poster I was replying to. Belly flying in a freefly suit does not mean the skydive will be a disaster.

Quite literally, I have never seen one freeflyer take a grip on the grippers of another freeflyer. Have you taken such a grip? You have a lot more jumps than I do, so perhaps I simply haven't encountered such a grip yet, and you have.

I maintain the opinion that grippers on some freefly suits are so the suit can be used for both disciplines. If the OP is tight on funds and wants to spring for just one suit, a freefly suit is a valid option.

Freefly grippers on freefly suits are most definitly for taking grips while freeflying. Competition moves like the horizontal compressed, vertical compressed and brouette all lend themselves to using leg grippers. Especially when launching those moves from the door. That's not to say you have to use them, but those moves most definitly lend themselves to the use of grippers.

But I guess if you've never competed then you probably wouldn't know that.

[ebusto 0]

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Freefly grippers on freefly suits are most definitly for taking grips while freeflying. Competition moves like the horizontal compressed, vertical compressed and brouette all lend themselves to using leg grippers. Especially when launching those moves from the door. That's not to say you have to use them, but those moves most definitly lend themselves to the use of grippers.

But I guess if you've never competed then you probably wouldn't know that.

I agree that it is easier to take leg grips, especially for the horizontal compressed and brouette, with grippers, but I've done all of the above (and seen many others at my friendly neighborhood wind tube) without grippers with absolutely no problem. If you can't take or launch a leg grip without grippers, then it is an issue of technique.

Of all of the jump suits of serious freeflyers that I can think of, I can't think of a single one that has grippers.

I'd love to see some video of people actually making use of them.

[ebusto 0]

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Totally disagree. I have never seen anyone jump a freefly suit with grippers on any RW jumps, except zoo loads. If you really want to learn either, get the appropriate suit. If you are looking for a cheap way out, skydiving is probably too expensive for you, unless you don't care about really progressing.

Where the hell do you people jump? Do you seriously not have anyone at your DZ that can belly fly well wearing a freefly suit? It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone.

[mjosparky 3]

How in the hell do you do a brouette in freefall?

Sparky

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Noun brouette f. (plural brouettes)

wheelbarrow; barrow (small vehicle used to carry a load and pulled or pushed by hand)

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[skybytch 259]

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Quite literally, I have never seen one freeflyer take a grip on the grippers of another freeflyer.

Dunno about other manufacturers, but I was working at Flite Suit when Guano (a freefly team) had their first suits with grips made (2005). They asked for the grips so they could take grips while doing their freefly routine for competition. These grips are not the same as grips on Flite Suit RW suits, nor are they in the exact same locations. Grips were not offered on freefly suits from Flite Suit prior to grips being put on Guano's suits.

Where I jump, if you want to do the camps that the RW LO's put on, you have to have a RW suit (they're cool, though, they have spares and are happy to loan them out). Why do they insist on RW suits? Because they've done a few of these camps and it's consistently the folks in freefly suits that have problems.

Sure, there are people out there who can do good recreational RW (ie actually complete what was dirt dived) in a freefly suit. But they aren't the majority, and the fact that they are in a freefly suit limits the type of formations that the group can build and the speed in which those formations can be built.

imho, a new jumper who doesn't know what discipline they want to pursue will be better served getting an RW suit for their first jumpsuit. Besides having the right tool for the job from the start (much easier to learn to drive a nail with a hammer than with a screwdriver), they are more likely to be able to fly with other people sooner on their belly; the faster they are jumping with others the more likely it is they'll stay in the sport.

But then again, I'm just an old fart who doesn't keep up with all the new shit in the sport, so it's very likely that I'm talking out my ass right now.

[FFlyer 0]

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Of all of the jump suits of serious freeflyers that I can think of, I can't think of a single one that has grippers.

I'd love to see some video of people actually making use of them.

hmmm, howabout Babylon? Heard of them before? Go onto the babylon website and look in their media section where there are pics of them on jumps.

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If you can't take or launch a leg grip without grippers, then it is an issue of technique.

It's not that you cant launch certain exits without grippers, it's that grippers help. I doubt teams like Babylon would use them if they didn't have a benefit (specifically to freeflying)

To each their own. We're moving away from the OP's actual question though. So feel free to pm me if you would like me to send you links to vids and pics showing freefly teams using grippers.

[jsreznor 0]

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But then again, I'm just an old fart who doesn't keep up with all the new shit in the sport, so it's very likely that I'm talking out my ass right now.

I'm going to have to agree with that since you've stated as fact that I cannot complete sequenced RW jumps that I dirtdive, and that the reason is because I wear a baggy FF suit.

It's amazing how omniscient one can be over the internet.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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speed.

That said, if you're going to buya suit, buy an RW suit. The fit is a little more important than a freefly suit, and the wrong suit can really hamper your RW progression.

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I disagree with this but everything else right on

To the OP def get a rw suit it is well worht the investment and yes the booties help out in many ways!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[davelepka 4]

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That said, if you're going to buya suit, buy an RW suit. The fit is a little more important than a freefly suit, and the wrong suit can really hamper your RW progression.
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I disagree with this but everything else right on

How so?

It's a fact that the speed range of RW is MUCH narrower than that of freeflying. As such, being able to fall in the middle of the RW speed range in a neutral body postion is essential for being an effective RW flyer. As such, the suit has to fit the bill perfectly in terms of cut and material selection.

Looking at freeflying, the speed range is vast. You can sitfly in a short, very open position, and be falling at 140. You could also sit in a more upright, longer position, and be doing 150. You could stand up, and do 160 (all speeds are for example only). As such, if your suit has a little more drag than you might need, stand up and go faster. If your suit has a tighter cut, sit down and spread out.

It's all still freeflying, and even with the different suits, you'll be able to stay with the skydive. Also, let's be fair, when learning to freefly, the level pf percision required is generally very low. It's quite a ways into the freefly progression before a jumper is expected to fly in a slot and pick up grips. Conversely, an RW student is expected to fly in their slot and pick up grips on every jump. The greater level of percision required dictates the need for a greater level of percision with your jumpsuit.

Let's get a few things out of the way here. First off, average sized people will understand this issue less than the lightweights or the big boys. The importance of the right suit becomes readily apparent when you're struggling to stay up with a floaty formation, or tyring to bend in half and pick up a grip because you're 125lbs soaking wet.

Can you de-arch and get up there? Maybe. Can you tough it out and strain you lower back to keep up the fall rate? Maybe. Does either one of those body positions promote learning, or even just having fun? No way, no how, not ever.

Just like the suit can make or break the dive for those who don't fit the 'average' body size or type, even those right down the middle of the range will benefit from the right suit. As fast you can turn points in suit that's a size to big, if you could relax that arch and fly mroe neutral, you would be that much fatser if the suit was the right size.

This thread isn't about what you could do, it's about what you should do. There is no replacement for using the right tool for the right job.

If there's one thing I learned from all of my camera jumps (and most of my jumps involve a camera) it;s to dress for success. In any given day, I might film a 225lb. guy doing a tandem, a 110lb. girl doing an AFF jump, a four way team, a group of freeflyers and a tracking dive. There is no camera, no lens, no fancy helmet that will produce good footage if you're not in your slot. Being there is everything, and the only way to be there is to wear the right suit.

If the OP wants to do RW, he should buy an RW suit. When he wants to freefly, he should worry about that when (or if) that time actually comes.

[Rstanley0312 0]

This thread isn't about what you could do, it's about what you should do. There is no replacement for using the right tool for the right job.

I agree 110% as well as with your last statement but with my FF coach I learned how much a good suit with the right fit does help. I'm 6'3 200 I would say close to avg but with an advantage of wingspand. That being said..... in FF I found that the suit I bought helps me dramatically with more precision moves and docks and is the right tool for the job for my body. I just think it is as important as it was for me when I bought my RW suit. Both are amazing tools that have helped me in the air. I'm not saying you are flat out wrong I just think the right fit for a FF suit is just as important. You are the one with a TON more experience just giving my input with what I have done and what has helped me.


Also..... I think when fisrt starting to FF a suit is not as necessary. Once a person gets to the level when they are docking etc. it then becomes crucial imo. With RW you start doing this right away. The OP should def. invest in a good RW suit.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[SwampGod 0]

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The question is, is there any reason not to buy a freefly suit and just use it for belly flying?

There are reasons, to be sure... though depending on your budget and the "rules" of the local dz, a freefly suit with small grippers could be a nice all-around suit with some limitations.

A freefly suit will not have the leg drive that booties will offer. In addition, a freefly suit without grippers will likely result in many pinches on the back of your leg when people try to take a grip. It's a short-lived pain, but you know it when it happens.
That being said, my first and only suit for years was a freefly suit without grippers, and I was able to fly to my slot on my belly once my skill level allowed it.

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I'm not going to start freeflying for quite a while since I'm still not close to good enough at belly, but I know belly suits don't work for freeflying (why is that, incidentally? Just less drag?).

In my neck of the woods, most people would say a belly suit has booties, but that doesn't have to be the case. Some belly suits have leg cuffs that are simply pant-like and left open. Most would agree that they at least have large arm and leg grippers.

Historically, freefly suits were baggier, but that is changing. Even my original Hanne suit is my "fast" suit while doing AFF.

To answer your question, in my mind, you can freefly in most any suit that has closed leg cuffs and small leg grippers. In a sit, an open cuff will inflate and can ride up to the knee, and large leg grippers will give you all sorts of funky drive. You're fairly well limited to knee flying if you want to fly head-up with most booties.


I agree with the general consensus that you dress for success, so your next suit should put you at a middle-of-the-road speed on your belly. You should have jumped with others enough by now to know whether you need to speed up or slow down. The "speed" of your suit will depend on the bagginess and material of the suit, whether it has booties or not.

Since it seems you will mostly be belly flying this year, grippers do seem like a good idea. Booties are up to you and your budget - they're not as versatile, but certainly seem to be the better tool for the job (belly relative work) once you learn how to use them (so I hear, I've never owned booties).

For what it's worth, I've been doing more belly flying lately, so I added small arm and leg grippers to my new Space Suit from Tony Suits, but do not feel I do enough hard-core belly relative work to justify booties.

-eli

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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That being said, my first and only suit for years was a freefly suit without grippers, and I was able to fly to my slot on my belly once my skill level allowed it.

That's the caveat. As an experienced skydiver I can flat fall fast in my free fly suits and am still level with flat formations when I turn around 360 degrees even though I'm not at a neutral fall rate; although as a beginning skydiver I'd be stiff and slow in the suit (which would mean trouble getting in), and wouldn't have stayed level that far outside my neutral fall rate.

[diablopilot 2]

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Totally disagree. I have never seen anyone jump a freefly suit with grippers on any RW jumps, except zoo loads. If you really want to learn either, get the appropriate suit. If you are looking for a cheap way out, skydiving is probably too expensive for you, unless you don't care about really progressing.

Where the hell do you people jump? Do you seriously not have anyone at your DZ that can belly fly well wearing a freefly suit? It's like an episode of the Twilight Zone.

They are not talking about you, they are talking about someone with less than 30 jumps just building the foundation of good skydiving schools. Stick around a little while longer, get and instructional rating and try creating some skydivers of your own, and you might have an idea of what some of these people might be on about.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[popsjumper 2]

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..but I've done 10+ point 4-way, multiple point 8 to 10 ways, etc. in a freefly suit with no issues, in other words, completed as dirt dived.

Who cares? We're talking to young jumpers here and what's appropriate for THEM.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SwampGod 0]

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As an experienced skydiver I can flat fall fast in my free fly suits...although as a beginning skydiver I'd be stiff and slow in the suit (which would mean trouble getting in), and wouldn't have stayed level that far outside my neutral fall rate.

Hmmm.... in your opinion, is this a function of being a freefly suit with a closed leg cuff and no booties, or simply because it's baggy?

There are a number of people in this thread who feel beginners should use a belly suit. What about a tight freefly suit? Many modern freefly suits are quite tight. Or what about simply any suit that puts you at an average fall rate for your drop zone?

For what it's worth, I've heard some people tell beginners to wait on booties, and simply fly a suit with grippers, as booties offer quite a bit of drive that is difficult at first to manage. Is that a silly notion?

Thanks!!!

-eli

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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As an experienced skydiver I can flat fall fast in my free fly suits...although as a beginning skydiver I'd be stiff and slow in the suit (which would mean trouble getting in), and wouldn't have stayed level that far outside my neutral fall rate.

Hmmm.... in your opinion, is this a function of being a freefly suit with a closed leg cuff and no booties, or simply because it's baggy?

Just because it's baggy.

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What about a tight freefly suit?

A tight freefly suit at a DZ where people still have more drag is going to have you back flying or getting creative with your back and the insides of your legs to get enough lift to maintain a comfortable head-up fall rate. That seems difficult to me; although I grew up before there were wind tunnels.

[ficus 0]

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They are not talking about you, they are talking about someone with less than 30 jumps just building the foundation of good skydiving schools. Stick around a little while longer, get and instructional rating and try creating some skydivers of your own, and you might have an idea of what some of these people might be on about.

JP, you obviously have no knowledge of Eric's contribution to the skill sets of countless younger jumpers. That he does not have an exalted Instructional Rating from the almighty church of USPA may have been enough for you to post from your high horse, but he didn't need one to spend hundreds of hours of his time with younger jumpers for no pay at all. You are way out of line.

(Eric: I still think you are a douche.)

[diablopilot 2]

That may be, but so far I see someone who has decided to belittle others with signifigant experience simply because it doesn't fit into his notion of what he thinks is cool.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[AggieDave 6]

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Freefly jumpsuit for belly flying?

Sure. And you can drag race a Yugo. You can haul lumber in a Geo and you can learn to parallel park a semi truck on Main St. You can also use a FF suit for RW and do it ok. You will find that as you're learning and trying to do fun skydives, having the right tool for the job will help you get better, faster and have more fun (fun being able to do more successful planned dives).

I have a RW suit for RW dives, a FF suit for FF dives and swoop gear for swoop specific jumps. I can do either in either suit, but I prefer to use the specific gear for the specific dive. It makes it easier on me and I have better success.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[ficus 0]

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That may be, but so far I see someone who has decided to belittle others with signifigant experience simply because it doesn't fit into his notion of what he thinks is cool.

???

The parade has come through talking about how you will never be able to do anything more than a zoo load on your belly in a freefly suit. This is obvious horseshit. He is not trying to show everyone how cool he is. He is legitimately confused that there is apparently nowhere else in the world where people can fly on their bellies without lil' handles on their suits.

Seriously, calm down.

[mjosparky 3]

His profile says “A” license, 5 years in the sport and 1000 jumps. None of these accomplishments would lead a person to believe he is a teaching guru in the arts of proper jumpsuit selection. The use of a FF suit will do nothing but impede his progress in learning to fly RW. The same holds true trying to learn FF in an RW suit. While your friend may be able to fly RW adequately in a FF suit this thread is about a guy with 30 jumps learning to fly RW. His best choices would be a properly fitted RW suit and good coaching. And no coach or instructor worth a damn is going to suggest the wrong tool for the job.

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Seriously, calm down.

Yes you should.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[diablopilot 2]

Who's not calm?

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[popsjumper 2]

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...The parade has come through talking about how you will never be able to do anything more than a zoo load on your belly in a freefly suit.

Quite a stretch from the reality of this thread. Good one!

I wonder whatever happened to the OP. Probably got tired of the hatefulness. Brings to mind one word - retention.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rehmwa 2]

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For what it's worth, I've heard some people tell beginners to wait on booties, and simply fly a suit with grippers, as booties offer quite a bit of drive that is difficult at first to manage. Is that a silly notion?

it is a silly notion - anyone telling you that is trying to sell you two suits - one now, and then the one you REALLY need (with booties) later.

you can tuck in the booties at first - or, BETTER, just learn to use the booties as soon as you can so you don't have to relearn

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[almeister112 0]

Nope, I was just sitting back and enjoying the fireworks. Internet discussions never cease to be entertaining. I think I'm going to get a used RW suit to start with, and get myself a nice new one around the time I get myself a nice new rig. For now I'm perfectly happy with older stuff. Thanks for the advice, everyone.