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husky329

Learning to swoop on a Pilot?

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>If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most
>likely result is that you will get hurt.

Nonsense. The shorter recovery arc does indeed narrow the window - but the reduced speed 1) decreases the reaction time you need and 2) reduces impact forces.



In this thread we haven't yet been able to agree whether there is some wing loading below which it might get more dangerous to try swooping, at least for 180 degree or more rotation.

While the one poster's choice of "most likely...get hurt" words is overdoing it, I still think at some really low wing loading the danger might go up.

I've occasionally done steep diving 180s with F-111 7 cells at 0.65 WL (from 50 ft?) or get little swoops out of a similar canopy at 0.9 when doing a low tight 360 dive (from 150 ft?).

That kind of stuff is usually seen as crazy shit at the DZ. While it could be that it's just not something people practice much, it does feel safer to do swoop approaches with a 1.25 wing loading canopy. (Which admittedly is ZP and 9 cell so has better inherent performance.)


If I'm talking to some newbie at 1.0 loading and telling him he isn't ready to move up to a 1.25 wing loading canopy yet, I might encourage him to work on the downsizing checklists with his slower canopy, but I wouldn't tell him to keep going past 90 degrees until he can do 360 approaches.


To some degree we're not just varying the wing loading in these arguments, but are often making assumptions about experience when we think about whether a particular canopy is dangerous for someone "learning to swoop".

So we're not talking about the guy with 2000 jumps loading the same canopy brand at 1.6 versus the same guy at 1.1. Instead we might be thinking of the guy at 1.1 as having 150 jumps or something. This hidden factor also influences what we say on the issue.

I'm still wondering if we should say to up and coming jumpers that they really shouldn't be trying to learn to do 180 degree plus accelerated turns to landing, even if they have good coaching, below a certain wing loading (perhaps modified by the canopy type's recovery arc), due to some inherent danger in doing so. Of course it is always easy to recommend more jumps in general before moving to that stage in swooping.

Lets say the 150 jump guy gets another 100 jumps, then moves from 1.1 to 1.3 wing loading. (I'm not trying to be exact with wing loadings or follow the Germain chart, but just throw out some ballpark figures.) He then makes 50 more jumps getting really comfortable with his 1.3 loading canopy.

He now wants to learn to do 180 degree swoops. One isn't going to recommend he go and do that on his old 1.1 loading canopy, is one, even if he has more experience on it?

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He now wants to learn to do 180 degree swoops. One isn't going to recommend he go and do that on his old 1.1 loading canopy, is one, even if he has more experience on it?


That would be a real poor choice of canopy.
Its no use to fight and try to keep diving something so big meanwhile trying to learn a difficult setup : (FR)180.

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Huh. Looks like I hit on a pretty debated topic. Thanks to everyone who gave me their opinion and experience! However, I think I need to clarify. When I said "Learning to swoop" I should have said "At the MOST doing double-front approaches from a long and high final to start to learn how the canopies recover". But, like I said like I said in the first post, thats a long ways down the road after canopy courses and local coaching. I have demo-ed canopies the next size down and stood them up on target, but I'll wait for a while until I downsize.

I think what I'm collecting from this post is, I was entirely right about coaching and canopy courses and not yankin' on the front risers with low jump numbers. Its also being made clear that any canopy will have a short recovery arch at a low wing loading. And since the rig I buy to go with it will last me longer, I'm stickin' with the pilot.
-Cam

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I learnt to swoop on a pilot. Here's a tip for when/if you do get to turning approaches. Start the turn a little higher than you would for the natural recovery arc. Try and keep the canopy in a slow turn using both risers rather than whipping it around on one riser. When you come out of the turn, keep a fraction of double fronts on (assuming you need it) and that will keep the canopy in a descent like a steeper trimmed canopy. Get coaching & don't get your fingers jammed in the dive loops!

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if you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.



Utter rubbish.

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Work on your set up, accuaracy, and flare techniques. In doing so you are working on swooping as it will be very important later to be doing these things correctly.



This is VERY VERY accurate, and critical to High Performance success. Agree with you 100% here.

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If you can do tip toe landings on the spot consecutively many times over, you are most likeley ready to downsize...



Disagree. Just cause you can stand up, doesn't mean you're ready to downsize.

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Wait until you are ready for a higher wingloading before you begin high performance turns, the recovery arc on light wingloadings is far too short and leaves little to no margin for error.



Again, disagree.

To the OP: Get GOOD coaching. Period. Take it slow and be thorough with each step. It's not a race, and you'll always be your own worst enemy.

Blues,
Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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I'm about 100 jumps in to my learning-to-swoop-a-Pilot journey (about 500 Pilot jumps total), and I have learned a great deal. Not least about how much there is to learn eh :P

It's been brilliant for the most important "fly a reliable pattern" part. Also quite good for the double-front-riser straight-in-approach part. When you time it right, you get a nice horizontal flight at the end, and it's extremely easy to control during the flare - carving your turn a little to miss a traffic cone or whatever.

I'm now doing 90s and there are definitely pros and cons. The short recovery arc is probably a hindrance to monster swoop performance, but it's very good for forgiving you when you inevitably get something wrong - if you need to bail, you can do so with ease and confidence.

On the downside, I am doing my turn quite low and the sight picture makes me uncomfortable, regardless of "forgiveness". I suspect I need to do a slower, longer turn from higher rather than the hard 90-to-double-fronts I have now. I am finding that riser pressure builds up very quickly though as I go faster.

Back to the coaches!

I also have a Sabre2 in the same size as my Pilot available... people in the know are suggesting I just use that now that I've got this far. See how it goes eh?

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I know exactly how you feel. I am doing 90s on my Sabre2 (only loaded at about 1.3) and I struggle with front riser pressure quite a bit when I don't get my turn exactly right (ie. I am a little high).

I am starting from 300' and going to double fronts for 2-3 seconds before doing a slow carve. I have been recommended to move to a Katana so I can increase my initiation altitude a bit and hold the dive easier.

When everything is right (ie. pattern, set-up and turn) the swoops are OK on it, but if the winds are 15-20 mph or less I prefer to downwind them to enjoy the extra speed.

I also agree about the coaches, every time I get coaching I improve in quite a big step.

I would be interested to hear your comparison of the Sabre2 and the Pilot.

Good luck and stay safe!
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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I know exactly how you feel. I am doing 90s on my Sabre2 (only loaded at about 1.3)...

...I have been recommended to move to a Katana so I can increase my initiation altitude a bit and hold the dive easier.

Good luck and stay safe!



So you're already flying over the recommended wingoading, and people are recommending a Katana? Who, is this some hot shot 100 jump wonder, or it is a an instructor? If you can't swoop your Sabre2, then you've got no business being on a Katana.

I've got a Sabre2 and can hold it in a dive for 720* before the riser pressure is too much. A few tips to help, make sure you're flying in deep brakes before your turn. As soon as your ready, let up fully on the brakes and start the turn, the pressure will be non existent. If you see you're too high, slow the turn down.
Also, harness turns can be used to turn the parachute without distorting the tail and slowing it down. Also, go to the gym and do chin ups and pull ups.

I hope you take your own advice (stay safe) and continue learning on the Sabre2, it is a great wing and swoops nicely.

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Who, is this some hot shot 100 jump wonder, or it is a an instructor?



Instructor, professional canopy coach and pro-swooper.

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If you can't swoop your Sabre2, then you've got no business being on a Katana.



I am getting some good swoops and the coach mentioned above indicated that a change to a Katana would enable me to continue learning at an optimal rate.

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I've got a Sabre2 and can hold it in a dive for 720* before the riser pressure is too much. A few tips to help, make sure you're flying in deep brakes before your turn. As soon as your ready, let up fully on the brakes and start the turn, the pressure will be non existent. If you see you're too high, slow the turn down.
Also, harness turns can be used to turn the parachute without distorting the tail and slowing it down.



Thanks - that's pretty much what I am doing.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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I know exactly how you feel. I am doing 90s on my Sabre2 (only loaded at about 1.3) and I struggle with front riser pressure quite a bit when I don't get my turn exactly right (ie. I am a little high).

I am starting from 300' and going to double fronts for 2-3 seconds before doing a slow carve. I have been recommended to move to a Katana so I can increase my initiation altitude a bit and hold the dive easier.

When everything is right (ie. pattern, set-up and turn) the swoops are OK on it, but if the winds are 15-20 mph or less I prefer to downwind them to enjoy the extra speed.

I also agree about the coaches, every time I get coaching I improve in quite a big step.

I would be interested to hear your comparison of the Sabre2 and the Pilot.

Good luck and stay safe!



Im sorry but that is terrible advise.



You wont be able to continue to learn at an optimal rate unless you get a velocity.
BASE 1384

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Im sorry but that is terrible advise.



You wont be able to continue to learn at an optimal rate unless you get a velocity.



Make sure though you get it at a ~ 2.0 wingloading, otherwise it'll be too hard to hold your frontrisers down for long.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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If you can't swoop your Sabre2, then you've got no business being on a Katana.



I am getting some good swoops and the coach mentioned above indicated that a change to a Katana would enable me to continue learning at an optimal rate.

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I don't know who is this person but this a dangerously stupid advice. You have no business to be under a katana until you have completely mastered all aspect of flight under the Sabre 2 and even then you should go to a smaller Sabre 2 until you have at least six or seven time more jumps....

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Yeah I am. The canopy depressurises a little bit as it slows, becomes less rigid, and it becomes easy to haul down a front riser.

Making the turn is OK; keeping it in the dive after the rotation is done is what takes more effort, it really really wants to plane out :)
(As I said though, when I do screw up, that is a good thing.)

--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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Im sorry but that is terrible advise.

You wont be able to continue to learn at an optimal rate unless you get a velocity.



Dude - THAT was bad advice. I jumped a borrowed Velocity 111 yesterday and I now have a broken tib/fib to show for it. :(
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Im sorry but that is terrible advise.

You wont be able to continue to learn at an optimal rate unless you get a velocity.



Dude - THAT was bad advice. I jumped a borrowed Velocity 111 yesterday and I now have a broken tib/fib to show for it. :(


My bad man, I meant to say it has to be sub 100.

That 111 probably flared like a shit brickhouse.B|
BASE 1384

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Im sorry but that is terrible advise.

You wont be able to continue to learn at an optimal rate unless you get a velocity.



Dude - THAT was bad advice. I jumped a borrowed Velocity 111 yesterday and I now have a broken tib/fib to show for it. :(


My bad man, I meant to say it has to be sub 100.

That 111 probably flared like a shit brickhouse.B|

I'd rather say it was a piloting error.

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