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husky329

Learning to swoop on a Pilot?

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This summer I will hopefully be learning alot more about canopy flight and beginning to learn how to swoop. I will talk to EVERYONE at the DZ, take as many canopy courses as I can (between packing tandems) and be as slow and safe as possible. I will also be trying to save up for a rig of my own, and buy some new gear. My Question is:

Is the recovery arch of the aerodyne pilot too short for swooping? (I want to be as safe as possible)

I am currently jumping an aerodyne pilot (and I love it), but I was told it has too quick a recovery arch and it wouldn't be a good idea to learn to swoop on it. Is this true? (It does recover quickly) Most all of my jumps have been on the Pilot (with the exception of demos like the pulse, sabre2, sabre).

I love the pilot's openings and I have been on some loooong spots and got back fine with the pilot (knowing the difference between toggles and rears helps too) I also like the fact that if I buy it in zpx, the rig I buy will last me a LOT longer.

Any input???
-Cam

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Your desire is true, but your focus is misguided. At this stage in the game the differences between the Pilot and something like a Safire2 won't be the deterring factor for your progression for a bit of time.

Under 200 jumps you should be spending a lot of time doing hop-n-pops and altitude clear and pulls. Some of the most important things you can work on are your pattern, your accuracy and learning how to fly the canopy in various configurations. Yoinking on a front riser for final will be done, but not for a while more. You have to have an understanding of how the canopy flies first.

Get coaching, good luck!

EDIT: At this point, money spent on a new canopy would be much better spent on coaching!
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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Is the recovery arc of the Aerodyne Pilot too short for swooping? (I want to be as safe as possible)

No you don't. If you wanted safety first, last and only, you wouldn't be jumping, let alone swooping.

So with that out of the way, make do with what you have and know, or get something admittedly better suited, learn to fly that first and learn to swoop later.

Is a Pilot ideal? No, it's not. Can it be done? Yes. You will be learning some things you will have to unlearn later anyway.

Take it slow, get all the coaching you can, accept there's going to be risk and minimise it. Have fun, be safe.
Johan.
I am. I think.

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Is the recovery arc of the Aerodyne Pilot too short for swooping? (I want to be as safe as possible)

No you don't. If you wanted safety first, last and only, you wouldn't be jumping, let alone swooping.



How did you interpret "I want to be as safe as possible" to "If you wanted safety first, last and only"?

Being "as safe as possible" does not equate to "I only want to do it if it is safe". Unless of course you are reading between the lines and making ASSumptions.

Some people and their ego's make me laugh.

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I'm doing it right now... it's not as easy to dive as my girlfriend's Sabre2 (of the same size), or the Vision (larger) I jumped previously, but it's what I have.

If I were more serious about it I'd change canopies, but I dig my Pilot for plenty of other reasons and still I'm learning plenty.

As for the safety aspect, I honestly don't feel qualified to answer, but nobody has said "don't do this" when I've asked for help. This part of the answer is, obviously, worth what you paid for it.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.

I had your attitude too and i got hurt.

Work on your set up, accuaracy, and flare techniques. In doing so you are working on swooping as it will be very important later to be doing these things correctly.

If you can do tip toe landings on the spot consecutively many times over, you are most likeley ready to downsize...

Wait until you are ready for a higher wingloading before you begin high performance turns, the recovery arc on light wingloadings is far too short and leaves little to no margin for error.

At yor jump numbers you will more than likely get hurt.

you are a long time dead, whats the hurry?
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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A Pilot 150 at a 1:1 WL is what I learned how to swoop on. Like others said - it's not ideal, but you can do it. The recovery arc is super short and you have to do maneuvers pretty close to the ground, but it's also good in a way because of how fast the canopy recovers.

I transitioned after the Pilot to a couple of Sabre2s, then to a couple of Katanas stopping (for now) on a Katana 107. I also took about 5 different canopy courses in between all of those downsizes and have gotten the advice of local swoopers.

Try to get someone at your DZ to do some coaching for you. That's the best way.

Good luck!

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If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.



Please explain why lower then 1.2 will most likely result in a accident.



What he was most likely talking about is the fact that at that WL canopys will recover a lot quicker. So you will have to turn lower to the ground, giving you less time to bail if shit goes wrong. Where he screwed up is by not saying that this more apply s to 180 deg+ turns. 90 deg. riser turns are safer (than 180+) under that WL.
Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

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If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.

I had your attitude too and i got hurt.

Work on your set up, accuaracy, and flare techniques. In doing so you are working on swooping as it will be very important later to be doing these things correctly.

If you can do tip toe landings on the spot consecutively many times over, you are most likeley ready to downsize...

Wait until you are ready for a higher wingloading before you begin high performance turns, the recovery arc on light wingloadings is far too short and leaves little to no margin for error.

At yor jump numbers you will more than likely get hurt.

you are a long time dead, whats the hurry?



I dunno, I have a different opinion. I think that the lighter loaded canopys aren't a totally bad choice for learning to swoop. If you make a mistake you are more likely to be injured vs. killed. I learned to swoop on a saber 170 @ 1.3 and started double fronts around 200 jumps. You just have to know what your personal limits are and be reasonable about them.

I have had my share of close calls, like anyone else. Just have to work hard to stay out of that area. FWIW, on my saber150 people thought I was going to die. The people doing all the bitching didn't know a whole lot about swooping though and were mostly used to seeing people swoop velos. So yeah, my 450ft turns looked pretty damn low. The swoopers on the other hand did a good job making sure i was being reasonable.

Anyways thats my $.02
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.



I've been doing 180 turn landings on a Samurai 150 loaded at between 1.0 to 1.1 for a few hundred jumps and have never had an issue. In fact I have had quite a number of people comment on the performance of the canopy, with some mistaking it for a 135 because I can get some good distance and speed from it.
I start my turn at 400ft and do a slow turn so if I encounter traffic or am too low I have plenty of room to speed up to the turn.
But I can see part of your logic, I started on a Sabre 170 doing double front and then 90's, I tried 180's but found they were quite difficult to master on that canopy and I dug myself out of the corner a few times.

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If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most likely result is that you will get hurt.



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What he was most likely talking about is the fact that at that WL canopys will recover a lot quicker. So you will have to turn lower to the ground, giving you less time to bail if shit goes wrong. Where he screwed up is by not saying that this more apply s to 180 deg+ turns. 90 deg. riser turns are safer (than 180+) under that WL.



Any turn on a light wing loading (1.2 and below) has a very short recovery arc.

If one is wishing to be a swooper and is making nice stand up landings consistently, softly, on target and in all wind conditions, it is time to downsize.

A recovery arc can be the same each time if one executes it well, a lower wing loading has a short recovery arc and a very small margin for error.

One would benifit more in progression and safety if they downzize and learn that canopy they have decided to purchase.

Each time you get a new canopy you will have to learn its charcteristics and change your altitude and set up.

I have a 50 -100 ft margin for error, some have a 200-300 foot margin. Some of these people have thousands of jumps and hundreds of competition jumos and they still fuck up.

I don't think it is a good idea for someone with a couple of hundred jumps to be making high performance turns on a light wingloading because they are the most likely to make a bad judgement due to lack of experience. Once they have wing loading that is over 1.2 they will then have a better margin for error and a distinguishable turning altitude.

This is my opinion of course, and people will continue to swoop large canopies at light wingloadings.

some will get aaway with it and some will die.

It is easy to swap your canopy for a more appropriate one, the canopies I learned to swoop on were a crossfire 109 that I bought for $400 and a FX 89 that i bought also for $400. larger canopies hold a better value so price is not a barrier, only skill and determination.
"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

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This is an interesting topic on learning to swoop while still on low wing loadings, that isn't talked about much because usually novices aren't thinking about swooping much until on a faster canopy.

I'm just guessing, but it seems that a lot of the basic downsizing exercises can be done just fine on a low wing loading canopy. 90s may be OK but going on to high performance 180s is perhaps best done only once a new jumper has moved up to a slightly higher wing loading so the recovery arc isn't so small.

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There may be lower margin of error but the speeds on lighter wingloadings are also much slower which gives you time.. right? I started doing front riser landings on my 170 s2 loaded at 1.23. Yes it recovers kind of fast but it still goes slow after a 90 degree turn so one would have plenty of time to dig out of a corner with breaks..?

Or are we just talking about how inexperience generates the risk?

I'm still a newbie and am trying to understand why it's so hazardous compared to swooping later on.

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Cueb:
Part of the issue is figuring out what wing loading is "too low". Usually at 1.2 a canopy can be pretty lively and make little swoops without trying too hard. At 1.0, much less so. Although there will be other factors like the canopy type, it is hard to know what numbers to quote as a guideline.

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In reply to the thing about wing loading and increased recovery arc, I wouldn't mind bringing the subject back to Pilots for a sec: I'm loading mine somewhere between 1.6 and 1.7 (depending on how many pies I've eaten), and the recovery arc is still short.

YMMV.
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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This summer I will hopefully be learning alot more about canopy flight and beginning to learn how to swoop. I will talk to EVERYONE at the DZ, take as many canopy courses as I can (between packing tandems) and be as slow and safe as possible. I will also be trying to save up for a rig of my own, and buy some new gear. My Question is:

Is the recovery arch of the aerodyne pilot too short for swooping? (I want to be as safe as possible)

I am currently jumping an aerodyne pilot (and I love it), but I was told it has too quick a recovery arch and it wouldn't be a good idea to learn to swoop on it. Is this true? (It does recover quickly) Most all of my jumps have been on the Pilot (with the exception of demos like the pulse, sabre2, sabre).

I love the pilot's openings and I have been on some loooong spots and got back fine with the pilot (knowing the difference between toggles and rears helps too) I also like the fact that if I buy it in zpx, the rig I buy will last me a LOT longer.

Any input???



this is what you get if you combine:

1. starting to swoop @ too low jump number
2. low wingload
3. very fast recovering canopy (pilot in this case)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgr1qdQHgx0

I was lucky..... The problem on lightly loaded and fast recovering canopies is that the difference between a somewhat nice swoop and a hole in the ground is so very very small. And this wat @ wl 1,3!

So, no not a good canopy to learn to swoop on. sabre2 would be better.

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this is what you get if you combine:

1. starting to swoop @ too low jump number
2. low wingload
3. very fast recovering canopy (pilot in this case)



You can still learn how to fly a good pattern in any wind condition. You can learn how to land in 10,5,2m 10/10. You can learn how to setup and execute a safe 90 front riser turn and land with speed.

By the time you complete this you could be ready a more diving canopy.

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Back to the hijack

this is very interesting....so let me get this straight....my sabre 150 loaded @ 1.3 has a super short recovery arc. will a sabre 135 loaded @ 1.48 have a longer recovery arc???

I also jump a sabre 170 loaded @ 1.17 on ocassion and havent noticed a difference...but that could just be me.....I have noticed a hugh difference when jumping a friends sabre2 135...but that is comparing apples to oranges.


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dont fully agree, imo to get a "swoop" on a canopy with a super short recovery you'd almost have to aim the recovery a bit below ground level, otherwise you'd probably be high almost every time. If the auto recovery is just high enough you could be in trouble because there is no or little flare power left.

I dont mean to promote my youtube vids here but i think i have a nice example of what i mean at 2:44 of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtyuqFDDNbA

The auto recovery put his body far forward and the canopy at a high aoa before he had to flare, i think in some cases even a stall could occur at this point.


This is why i think a canopy with a longer recovery is safer to learn swooping on. You'd have to be ready for the other characteristics that usually come with these types of canopies, experience wise.

ofc pattern and setup can be practised on almost any canopy.

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dont fully agree, imo to get a "swoop" on a canopy with a super short recovery you'd almost have to aim the recovery a bit below ground level, otherwise you'd probably be high almost every time. If the auto recovery is just high enough you could be in trouble because there is no or little flare power left.


I don't think so. You force the canopy fly faster than its own speed with front rise(s). Auto-recovery means that you canopy bleed the extra speed off and going back to the speed which belongs to full flight without using any breaks or rear risers so you have 100% flare as usual.
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I dont mean to promote my youtube vids here but i think i have a nice example of what i mean at 2:44 of this vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtyuqFDDNbA

The auto recovery put his body far forward and the canopy at a high aoa before he had to flare, i think in some cases even a stall could occur at this point.


See above. If you fly in a direction you decent will be steeper under using front risers, than shallower when the canopy flares itself than you got back to normal. You AoA won't be anything like using brakes or rear risers after you relese the front risers.

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>If you try to dive a canopy at less than 1.2 w/l to the ground the most
>likely result is that you will get hurt.

Nonsense. The shorter recovery arc does indeed narrow the window - but the reduced speed 1) decreases the reaction time you need and 2) reduces impact forces if you screw up. And if you are going to screw up (everyone does) it is far, far better to be under a larger canopy than a smaller one.

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