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BillyVance

Penalties for flying with improper credentials?

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I didn't want to hijack the Duanesburg incident thread. Tombuch mentioned that the pilot of the DZ plane that the suicide jumped out of had only a private pilot's rating when he was supposed to have a commercial pilot's rating and that he was busted on it before.

If this is true, it looks like there is enough evidence to get him busted again. :S What are the penalties for infractions like that? I'm not a pilot...

Edited link to go directly to post in question: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3232310;#3232310
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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It made the news:

FAA investigating pilot in Duanesburg skydive death

"...It appears that Bob Rawlins did not have the proper pilot's license needed to take paying customers aloft, according to a Federal Aviation Administration official. ..."


http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=694683&category=&BCCode=&newsdate=6/9/2008
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

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It made the news:

FAA investigating pilot in Duanesburg skydive death

"...It appears that Bob Rawlins did not have the proper pilot's license needed to take paying customers aloft, according to a Federal Aviation Administration official. ..."



I bet he was thinking "oh shit" as Carafello jumped, for more reasons than one.

It sucks that it takes an incident like this to catch them in the act. [:/]

Edited to add: At the very least, I hope this serves as a warning to all pilots flying jumpers, that they better have all their ducks in a row, i's dotted and t's crossed.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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A lot of people are jumping on this bandwagon.

But I'll just state what should be obvious:

The suicide was irrelevant to the pilot's credentials. It doesn't matter how many licenses the pilot may or may not have had, the observer was going to commit suicide anyway. The argument CANNOT be made that if only the pilot had another license, then this nut-case would not have died.

So let's just forget about that kind of reasoning.

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A lot of people are jumping on this bandwagon.

But I'll just state what should be obvious:

The suicide was irrelevant to the pilot's credentials. It doesn't matter how many licenses the pilot may or may not have had, the observer was going to commit suicide anyway. The argument CANNOT be made that if only the pilot had another license, then this nut-case would not have died.

So let's just forget about that kind of reasoning.



This is why I started a thread here, rather than discuss it in the incident thread.

If you're skirting the rules, you always run the risk of getting caught, regardless of who rides in the plane with you.
"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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An the fact that he is still flying like that is proof that system is broken and dose not work, for one they (FAA) already knew he was doing it and didn;t bother to follow up after the 45 days to see if he was in compliance or getting in, and then failed to bust his ass again when it was clear he was back operating the same.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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An the fact that he is still flying like that is proof that system is broken and dose not work, for one they (FAA) already knew he was doing it and didn;t bother to follow up after the 45 days to see if he was in compliance or getting in, and then failed to bust his ass again when it was clear he was back operating the same.



Stratostar is 100% right.

There are pilots all across the country flying jumpers with just a private lic. This has been brought up before on this site and the very jumpers that are flying with those pilots rush to their defense. They claim he is a “good guy and knows what he is doing”. Well he has not proved to anyone that he knows what he is doing.” As for being a good guy he is a liar and a cheat. I know of one, who was a USPA DZO, he required people to show log books and lic. but he did not have a comm. Lic. He lied to USPA and to everyone who jumped his a/c. He put his instructors at risk for a law suit because of his lie. He was and is a cheat and a liar. When the FAA looked to the matter they attacked the one who reported the situation and let him slide. Any jumper at small dz with a DZO as the pilot should ask to see his/her lic.

Sparky

Yes this crap pissed me off.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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What are the penalties for infractions like that? I'm not a pilot...



The FAA takes away your certificates (which you didnt have anyway), fines you (maybe), then tells you not to do that again, and hopes you dont. And of course if you go off and fly without a certificate they can always threaten to keep your certificate longer......

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When my best friend bounced a number of years ago, the pilot/dzo had only a student license. The FAA fined him (I heard $2000) and then allowed him to complete his private. Upon receipt of his private it was immediately suspended for 90 days.

Of course the pilot's license was irrelevant to the fatality, but the fatality brought the FAA's attention to the matter.

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Of course the pilot's license was irrelevant to the fatality,



But the attitude of the pilot/DZO may have had something to do with the student fatality. Lie and cheat in one area might lead to the same behavior in other areas. How well was the student trained?

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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Being a '100 jump wonder':D I realize that I already know the answer to this question.
With the already huge amount of information that someone new to the sport has to digest, how in the hell are you supposed to know if the guy flying the plane is legit? I have to say that it more than bothers me to find out that this is also an area of concern in the community. I've heard stories of pilots that couldn't wait for the beer light but c'mon, this is just stupid.
I'm not one for knee jerk reactions, but seriously, is there really any way to completly this sport?

The brave may not live forever, but the timid never live at all.

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Being a '100 jump wonder':D I realize that I already know the answer to this question.
With the already huge amount of information that someone new to the sport has to digest, how in the hell are you supposed to know if the guy flying the plane is legit? I have to say that it more than bothers me to find out that this is also an area of concern in the community. I've heard stories of pilots that couldn't wait for the beer light but c'mon, this is just stupid.
I'm not one for knee jerk reactions, but seriously, is there really any way to completly this sport?



If I might make a suggestion...
It seems that if USPA is going to have a General Membership for DZs and allow these DZs to put the USPA crest on everything they do (implying that the USPA endorses their activities as safe) maybe USPA should actually inspect the activities at these DZs. I'm not saying we need to have anything like monthly inspections. Just have the Regional Director visit and jump at 5-10 DZs in his region each season. While he/she is at the DZ, he/she can also check things like their Instruction program, aircraft maintenance, pilot/rigger certification, etc. The RD could then write up a report that could be posted on that fancy new USPA website that they keep talking about, so that anybody with a little bit of interest could quickly check to see if a DZ has any major/minor deficiencies and what has been done to correct them.

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With the already huge amount of information that someone new to the sport has to digest, how in the hell are you supposed to know if the guy flying the plane is legit?



The same way you know the nuclear plant down the street is being operated safely. The same way you know there isn't lead paint in your children's toys. The same way you know there isn't a bacteria problem with the tomatoes in your salad.

The government is supposed to be providing solid oversight and inspections. That process drives the vendors to operate legally as a means of avoiding violations. If the oversight is so lax that pilots know they can fly illegally for more than 14 years, and know that if they do get caught they'll just get a slap on the wrist, then compliance fails.

When I go to a DZ I want to know that the operator is doing business safely and legally. That's not always the case. I believe the FAA needs to be more assertive in demanding compliance, and penalties need to be much stiffer than a 45 day suspension for an obvious and willful violation. I'd like to know the FAA actually visits the DZ's on a regular basis and inspects the operation. I understand inspectors are not always the friendliest people on the planet, and they sometimes make a big deal out of meaningless regulations, but I'd like to know the operation has undergone a recent ramp check. That's the only way I, as a jumper, can be comfortable that the pilot is properly certified and that the aircraft meets maintenance standards.
Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

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The problem with expecting any results from any USPA appointed office holder is that they have an interest in protecting their friends interest. Such things as former RD taking an under age tandem without bothering to file the proper paper work to get permission or a waver for the age requirements, while holding a tandem CD rating and is in charge of not only enforcing the rules on others as the RD, but is also the the guy who is teaching all new TI's that your NOT allowed to do that shit without jumping through the right hoops.

How can you expect the likes of Glen Bangs to be honest and truthful in dealing with member complaints that were also proven by the FAA to be true, only to have Glenduh send out to invesigate the the on goings of not one but two DZ's his good old boy buddy Mr. Tom Welgos who in turn not only tried to say the FAA and USPA members in bed together to drive out of business one of the two DZ's and also stopped in at the second long enough to ask his buddy Mr. Jay Stokes if any of the reports that were filed were true, and was told no, only Mr. Stokes was not on staff or even in the state during time frame of the violations, his word was taken as fact because Mr. Welgos and Mr. Stokes are old army buddys & he would trust Mr. Stokes with his life and Mr. Welgos made such statements in the FSDO office as to his reasons why he would just take Mr. Stokes word for it.

Then you have other cases, like USPA membership providing not only logbooks and video tapes proving one former RD Bob Ingoldsby was on the take of one DZO and was the S&TA @ that DZ where tandem ratings were given and rules for taking passangers were not followed per the SIMS or MFG requirements along with a whole host of other FAR & BSR violations that an S&TA would have to be blind and totally retarded to not know was 1. going on & 2. that is was a FAR violation.

So Mr. Bangs choose to hand over the statements to the very person members told USPA was on the take to "clean it up". That's kind of like the cops who bust crooked cops expecting the crooked cops to police themselfs and not cover up the evidence, by handing them the evidence.

So if you really think that you can trust the current seat holding President, Vice President, any other seat holding BOD member to publish a truthful report about not only their friend, but the very places they jump and work at then your friken fool and need to just go bury your head in the sand.

If you want to see any real change, then start by voting out the "lifers" who serve for their own self serving interest and take back the USPA and return it to a membership ORG. and not a DZO trade ORG. filled with special interest politics.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Personally, I'll vote for anyone who has as part of their platform the elemination of the Group Member Program.

That said, I don't really have a problem with a DZO being on the BOD, but they should be at maximum half, and better a small minority. As I see it, the DZOs have a huge interest in what the USPA does, and the majority of the individual membership would rather remain ignorant. Most fun jumpers want to have nothing to do with the politics. Most see skydiving as a haven from day to day life, and politics. Hence the 10% vote turn out. I'd be willing to bet that this election is no different in that less than 11% will vote, especially if photocopied ballots are not accepted (this rule could be changed at the Summer BOD meeting). Any takers?

Apathy, and ignorance = happy skydiver

Martin

Edit:
I realized after posting that I'm straying quite a bit off topic. Anyway, our FSDO has recently (couple of years ago) assigned a new guy to watch over the skydiving operations in the district. He actually visits (with notice) the DZs once or twice a year. I also heard that the FSDO for the MO area has stepped up enforcement, and ramp checks. From what I hear, they also found another DZO pilot with either insufficient certificate, or Commercial but Class 3 medical. Don't have any idea what the penalty might have been, or for that matter if it's even true.

I have a friend who's currently a student pilot. On his application for medical he stated that he'd never had an alcohol related conviction. The FAA found one in Oklahoma, the case had been dismissed, but the paperwork was screwed up in Oklahoma. The problem the FAA had was not with what they saw as falsifying documentation, they pulled his medical, and he's jumping through all kinds of hoops to get it back. They're not at all consistent, slap a guy on the hand for willful violations over a period of years, and go overboard over a simple misunderstanding.

The lesson is to be overly honest with the FAA! You might even note stuff that you were charged with on your medical, even if it was dismissed, etc.

Note for those who may not know that Tandem Instructors are required to maintain a Class 3 medical certificate. Commercial pilots are required to maintain a minimum of a Class 2, and Airline Transport Pilots (ATP) a Class 1.

Martin
Experience is what you get when you thought you were going to get something else.

AC DZ

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Agreed!
USPA should inspect Group Member DZs.

For example, several Canadian DZs are USPA Group Members. When we recently asked one Canadian DZO if USPA ever inspected, he replied "No. We just sent them $300 (?) and that allows us to list our DZ in Parachutist Magazine. It is good advertising. ...."
Only one USPA Board Member has vistied that DZ this century and she did not ask any difficult questions.
In his defense, that Canadian DZO complies with 99% of CSPA BSRs, struggles to keep up with Transport Canada's demands, etc.

At a bare minimum, USPA Group Member DZs should be required to file copies of all instructor and pilot licenses, medicals, etc. with USPA HQ every year.

Dagnabit!
If I have to spend the time and money to maintain a Class 3 medical, every other instructor should too.

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With the already huge amount of information that someone new to the sport has to digest, how in the hell are you supposed to know if the guy flying the plane is legit? I have to say that it more than bothers me to find out that this is also an area of concern in the community. I've heard stories of pilots that couldn't wait for the beer light but c'mon, this is just stupid.



You can take it a little farther if you like.

Even if the pilot's properly licensed, how do you know their medical is valid? How do you know the aircraft's been maintained properly? What about the guy who did the last oil change -- were they properly supervised and was their work inspected? At some level, you have to trust that the pilots and operators of the aircraft are doing their job....

However, FAR 61.3 says that to act as pilot in command, you must have in your physical possession the following 3 items: a valid pilot's certificate, a medical certificate, and photo identification. So you could always ask your pilot to see them. At a minimum, you would want to see a commercial (or airline transport pilot) certificate for single-engine aircraft, land (or multi-engine if appropriate), plus a Class 1 or Class 2 medical. Type ratings are not generally required for skydiving aircraft. Both would be valid for Part 91 operations for 12 calendar months. If you took a Class 2 medical today, 11 June 2008, it would be valid through 30 June 2009. (A pilot may have a Class 1 medical, which is only valid for six months -- but it is valid as a Class 2 medical for a year or as a Class 3 medical for two or three years, depending on the pilot's age.)

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However, FAR 61.3 says that to act as pilot in command, you must have in your physical possession the following 3 items: a valid pilot's certificate, a medical certificate, and photo identification. So you could always ask your pilot to see them. At a minimum, you would want to see a commercial (or airline transport pilot) certificate...




An airline transport pilot (commonly called an "ATP" or "ATPL") is tested to the highest level of piloting ability. The certificate is a prerequisite for acting as a pilot-in-command in scheduled airline operations.

"The minimum pilot experience is 1500 hours of flight time and 500 hours of cross-country flight time. Other requirements include being 23 years of age, instrument rating, being able to read, write, speak, and understand the English language, and being of good moral character."


I guess that is why you don't see many jump pilots that hold such a rate.

:D

Just Kidding!!

:)

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