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Psychonaut

Looking for knowledge on Pilot/Pulse/Safire2

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I've somehow managed to jump all sorts of different canopies: safire 2, sabre 2, lotus, pilot, storm, spectre at a few different sizes.

At 190 (.9:1) I preferred the spectre to the sabre 2.

The 170/169 (1.1:1) size, I liked the safire 2 a lot more than the sabre 2. Sabre 2 had horrible openings, attributed to the loading I think but that's why I got the safire 2. I liked the spectre but probably preferred the storm (non CF version). The lotus was pretty good but there was an issue with the demo so I was having odd openings which colored my view of the canopy. I also jumped a spectre but didn't really enjoy it that much. The storm was quite fun, nice openings, flies similar to a 9 cell but flares like a 7 cell IIRC. Cool, canopy and I thought about getting one.

The 150 (1.2:1) sabre 2 that I own is a great canopy that I really enjoy flying. I jumped a safire 2 149 that I didn't like at all. I put only one jump on a pilot so it's a little unfair to draw any conclusions but while the turns were really snappy, the glide was very flat and the flare really seemed to lack power compared to the other canopies I'd jumped. It's a friends so I may try it out again but as I'm learning 90s, I'm not sure my future is with a pilot, at least for now.

135 sabre 2/129 safire 2 (1.3/1.4) I demoed the sabre 2 down a zhills this year & put 30 jumps on it. Really liked the way it flew, openings were ok, not as good as my 150 but that's probably my body position having a greater affect on the canopy. I've been practicing being even in the harness which helps. Safire 2 turned quicker in my estimation but the riser pressure was higher. I've never had an issue with the flare on either the sabre 2 or safire 2 but they are different. The sabre 2 was slightly more of everything than my 150. I turned a little faster, dived more, lost more alti in dives etc. It was an incremental step which felt very small to me.

You still haven't mentioned how many jumps you have which will make a difference to what people suggest. I personally have 3 friends with over a 1000 jumps watching how I fly and land who advise me when I'm thinking of something and just generally. People who actually watch you fly will be able to advise you much better.

According to my wife, who has flown both the pilot and the pulse, they have similar characteristics (I'm paraphrasing her here) they turn fast, recover very quickly and don't have a lot of flare. My wife now flies a 120 stilleto loaded at about 1.1 (IIRC) and her experience with that canopy was similar except that it has a better flare. It's also more elliptical so I'm not suggesting you go that way.

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I believe the issues I had with the sabre 2 were at least in part due to my loading the canopy at like 1.1:1. I'm also not sure that the safire 2 149 was in great shape when I flew it because it felt mushy which might suggest that it was out of trim or other possible reasons.

My overall impressions of the differences between the sabre 2 & the safire 2 are that the safire 2 turns faster, opens longer (and softer) and has more power in the lower part of the flare. The sabre 2 has a longer recovery arc.

I think, overall, I prefer the safire 2 but, as I'm learning HP landings (slowly!), the sabre 2 suits my needs better. I'm looking to downsize right now (BillV's checklist etc) and based on my experience, I want to try both to see which I prefer because at different loadings and canopy sizes they perform differently. My long post was meant to show that, at different sizes my preference between different canopies changed to the point of being opposite.

Everything I've flown has been based on discussions with people who watch me fly regularly as will my next canopy purchase.

You really should let people know how many jumps you have. If you've got less than 100 then I don't know if it's going to make that much difference which canopy you choose because it's going to be a while before recovery arcs (to the extent that they vary between the common models) really matter that much.

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Not to start anything (so don't!) but that's one thing I dislike here, many people judge things soley on jump numbers. That doesn't mean I'm hiding double digits, but I can also admit I have no more than 200.

I post here looking for factual, first hand information people can give me about the canopy them self. Like you have, with recovery arc, and awesome information with different wing loadings.

I'm working with someone on this, and of COURSE am going to demo the shit out of all these canopies..

Oh and of course everyone gasps when they see a canopy smaller than 150, breaking that "HP barrier" but then again my case is unique due to my weight. I'm not 200lbs out the door with 30 jumps looking to buy a 135 ellip. :S

Stay high pull low

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There are a lot of other lightweight jumpers out there, so your situation really isn't that unique. Smaller canopies react differently, regardless of weight. That is why an instructor would be more likely to recommend a wingloading slightly higher than 1:1 on a larger (190+) canopy than they would be to recommend a 1:1 WL on a 150 or smaller.

What I say is, if you have to ask the permission of other people to do something, you probably aren't ready for it.

Jump numbers don't mean the world, but they absolutely play a factor.

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Not to start anything (so don't!) but that's one thing I dislike here, many people judge things soley on jump numbers. That doesn't mean I'm hiding double digits, but I can also admit I have no more than 200.


You'll get different answers, at least delivered differently depending on your jump numbers because that's the only experience anyone on this board can base their suggestions on unless they've seen you fly. No one is judging you, well, at least I'd hope they weren't but for a low time jumper (I'm basically one too), there's a lot of information about canopy flight that just isn't relevant when you're talking about which canopy to get.

For example, if you had 50 jumps then recovery arc is probably a lot less important than glide ratio. I'd probably suggest (not that I'm any expert) a flatter trimmed canopy rather than one with a nice long recovery arc. In fact, unless you're learning HP landings then you probably don't want a long recovery arc (happy to be corrected on this one). If you want to learn about general canopy aerodynamics read Brian Germain's book (http://www.amazon.com/Parachute-Its-Pilot-Ultimate-Ram-Air/dp/0977627721).

If you want people's opinions on a canopy or comparisons, I think you'll find that some people will hesitate due to the potential for some people to take comments as approval (not saying you would but it wouldn't be the first time). I personally make sure my profile is up to date (I'm a bit anal about it actually ;)) so that my comments and questions can be taken in context by people who don't know me. When you (or anyone) looks at my comments and then look at my jump numbers, you will probably weight my opinions accordingly which is as it should be. I'm a guy who's just started out and doesn't have a whole depth of knowledge about these things. I often get PMs telling me (politely!) to STFU which is fine because sometimes I really do need to STFU.

What you don't know about people who answer your questions on here is how they fly and jump numbers are the only good way to see that with many people who don't post all that frequently or aren't on the PD Factory team or something convincing. ;) The jump numbers thing cuts both ways, it's not the best way to tell how experienced/good someone is, but it's the best we have. Sometimes inexperience is obvious though, I've been guilty of showing mine plenty of times but jump numbers are less embarrassing. :D

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Daniel I apprecite your replies.

But, I'm not looking for approval from anyone. I know what sizes I can jump and what canopies; I've been working with an instructor this entire season knowing that by the end I'd need something new.

So, I didn't post trying to find that one reply making it 'okay' and that's my approval.. I posted for factual first hand information on how these different canopies act!

As far as landings I am currently only doing 90's or less on the fronts.. For the time being I do appreciate a smaller recovery arc as I'm just beginning these landing approaches.
Stay high pull low

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Daniel I apprecite your replies.

But, I'm not looking for approval from anyone. I know what sizes I can jump and what canopies; I've been working with an instructor this entire season knowing that by the end I'd need something new.

So, I didn't post trying to find that one reply making it 'okay' and that's my approval.. I posted for factual first hand information on how these different canopies act!

As far as landings I am currently only doing 90's or less on the fronts.. For the time being I do appreciate a smaller recovery arc as I'm just beginning these landing approaches.




Just an FYI Icarus can cut whatever size you want in a canopy so if you wanted a 143 you can get that in a Safire ;)
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
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Fair enough, I'll leave it then.

If you're looking to learn how to swoop, most of the people I've talked to have said that a sabre 2 is a better option due to having a longer recovery arc than the other mains that people usually buy. That's why my next will probably be a sabre 2 even though I actually prefer the safire 2 (right now! :D). In terms of recovery arcs, I believe it goes in this order: Pulse (or) Pilot, Safire 2, Sabre 2

I can understand why you'd want to stick with a similar recovery arc but when learning HP landings, the longer arc is safer (as I understand it). Obviously something to discuss with your instructor.

I've personally seen very experienced friends swoop the crap out of big, non-swoopy canopies, good stuff. :)

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Fair enough, I'll leave it then.

If you're looking to learn how to swoop, most of the people I've talked to have said that a sabre 2 is a better option due to having a longer recovery arc than the other mains that people usually buy. That's why my next will probably be a sabre 2 even though I actually prefer the safire 2 (right now! :D). In terms of recovery arcs, I believe it goes in this order: Pulse (or) Pilot, Safire 2, Sabre 2

I can understand why you'd want to stick with a similar recovery arc but when learning HP landings, the longer arc is safer (as I understand it). Obviously something to discuss with your instructor.

I've personally seen very experienced friends swoop the crap out of big, non-swoopy canopies, good stuff. :)



Right right, I'm still trying to figure out the best 'plan of attack' when it comes to the recovery arc of each canopy. Do you have any literature on why a longer one is safer? I always thought shorter would be safer for the time being just so I don't drive my ass into the dirt, but then again it could be dangerous to learn on a short recovery and then when I switch to a new canopy with a longer arc be SOL..

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Just an FYI Icarus can cut whatever size you want in a canopy so if you wanted a 143 you can get that in a Safire ;)



B|:DB|
Stay high pull low

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Do you have any literature on why a longer one is safer? I always thought shorter would be safer for the time being just so I don't drive my ass into the dirt, but then again it could be dangerous to learn on a short recovery and then when I switch to a new canopy with a longer arc be SOL..



Just answered your own question.B|
"Damn you Gravity, you win again"

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Short recovery arc is dangerous (as I understand it) because you need to hold your risers down until you're really close to the ground if you want to get a good plane out. So, you have like (I'm making this number up) half a second to get it right. With a long recovery arc, you not only let your risers up higher, it's easier to adjust.

You may want to take this canopy flight questions to the canopy piloting forum where people actually know what they're talking about (unlike me). :D

Get Brian Germain's book, that's a great place to start.

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I think the reason it is more dangerous is that due to the shorter recovery arc you must being your swoop closer to ground?


With you jump numbers short recovery arc is the way to go. Your canopy might save your ass before you learn how to save yours.

I used to have a Pilot150. I was really happy to have a full flare landing after flying 90 degrees around a 6m high trees tip.

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