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Psychonaut

Looking for knowledge on Pilot/Pulse/Safire2

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I'm in the market for a new canopy sometime this upcoming season.

I've been jumping a square 155, and just recently demoed a Pilot 150. The pilot was awesome, I loved it as it was significantly more responsive that my main I've had.

What I have my eyes on are the Pilot 140, Pulse 150 (possibly the 135 but doubtful) and the Safire2 149 (again, possibly 139).

Out the door I'm only 150, so I've always been flying right at a 1:1. Like I said the Pilot 150 was more responsive, but I feel like I have an absence of extra control and input since I'm not at a greater WL, not even 1.1. This is why I would consider the Pilot 140 or Safire2 139; the Pulse 135 would have to wait.

Is anybody able to comment on how these canopies are relative to eachother? 150vs150vs149 or 140vs139 etc.. Possibly rank them in order of performance?

Or if you have any other canopy suggestions let me know. Only ones I can think of are Sabre2 or PrecisionAero Fusion which I haven't looked to much into..

Blues
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I've demoed a Pilot and have a Safire2. IMHO the Pilot is a lot more responsive on toggle input and turns much snappier. I believe this is due to the way the brake lines are attached to the canopy. On the Pilot the entire rear side of the canopy is pulled down when you toggle turn. The PD line is built different so that the rear of the canopy is not as affect by toggle turns. However, I think the Safire2 has more glide and more flare power. It's more on the swoopier side than the Pilot. I would suggest demoing both. It really just comes down to which flying characteristics you like better.

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I've demoed a Pilot and have a Safire2. IMHO the Pilot is a lot more responsive on toggle input and turns much snappier. I believe this is due to the way the brake lines are attached to the canopy. On the Pilot the entire rear side of the canopy is pulled down when you toggle turn. The PD line is built different so that the rear of the canopy is not as affect by toggle turns. However, I think the Safire2 has more glide and more flare power. It's more on the swoopier side than the Pilot. I would suggest demoing both. It really just comes down to which flying characteristics you like better.



Boom. Exactly what I would say as well.


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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I've demoed a Pilot and have a Safire2. IMHO the Pilot is a lot more responsive on toggle input and turns much snappier. I believe this is due to the way the brake lines are attached to the canopy. On the Pilot the entire rear side of the canopy is pulled down when you toggle turn. The PD line is built different so that the rear of the canopy is not as affect by toggle turns. However, I think the Safire2 has more glide and more flare power. It's more on the swoopier side than the Pilot. I would suggest demoing both. It really just comes down to which flying characteristics you like better.



Awesome thanks.
What are you loading your safire2 at? Just not sure if you've flown one at a lower wl or if you're loading it heavier than I will be.
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At a wing loading of 1.57 the safire is awesome fun. however the above explanation is still relevant to a lighter wingloading with the comparable differences.

Safire 2 is my fav canopy of all time and in my opinion the pilot is very similar. I think i go for the safire 2 over the pilot cause my mates build them


.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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If you're loading a 150 at 1.0, consider a Silhouette. Also, do not rule out a Storm or Spectre.

If you can find one, try a PdF Electra. (But that's French, and you seem to be in the US.)

Demo, demo, demo. You'll know when you've found your next canopy. :)
Johan.
I am. I think.

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I've flown all 3, and I like all 3. The pulse and pilot (and silhouette) are more docile than the safire (and I'd place the storm here too), if you like the bit more spunk a safire has, you could try a fusion and sabre2 as well which are still intermediate canopies but at the most HP end. All of these canopies open, fly and flare fine at 1:1, if you want more response you could go smaller of course but you could also go a bit more HP (sabre2, fusion) and stay on the same size.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Right, demoing is the best way but now that I'm back from Az in this single digit weather of the midwest I have to wait until March/April :(

Dragon are you saying the Sabre2 and Fusion are more HP than all the others we're talking about?

The dilemma I'm faced with is something like this; a 140'ish canopy seems to be best fit for me right now, depending on the actual canopy itself of course, as a 150 is fine but I have more room. However the problem is that most companies go from 150 to 135, and I'm not sure at the moment if I can make that jump..

I think the next thing on my list is to demo a safire2 149 and/or 139 and take things from there.
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I've demoed a Pilot and have a Safire2. IMHO the Pilot is a lot more responsive on toggle input and turns much snappier. I believe this is due to the way the brake lines are attached to the canopy. On the Pilot the entire rear side of the canopy is pulled down when you toggle turn. The PD line is built different so that the rear of the canopy is not as affect by toggle turns. However, I think the Safire2 has more glide and more flare power. It's more on the swoopier side than the Pilot. I would suggest demoing both. It really just comes down to which flying characteristics you like better.

Without going too deep into technical explanations here, the idea about difference in how the canopy turns due to brake lines setup is right, however, what you have said about the Pilot brake lines and PD lines is incorrect. You just have it backwards that is all. Pilot turns are more responsive because brake line setting affects corners of the canopy first before deflecting the rest of the trailing edge. That setting also helps with keeping canopy on heading during opening. In Pilot case it makes it really fun to fly, but it also pushes the user to learn and use the staged flare approach for landing.

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Dragon are you saying the Sabre2 and Fusion are more HP than all the others we're talking about?



Yup. I've flown all of those, except for the silhouette, and that's the order I'd place them in.

You may very well be happy with a sabre2 150 if you're used to something like a zp.exe 155 (at least I'm assuming you have a sabre1-like canopy right now) and have no need to downsize to a 135/140 to get a bit more responsiveness.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Yep, but after demoing the Pilot 150 and feeling the significantly greater response and whatnot, I almost hate my canopy :(

Like said I just need to demo demo demo. I want to try the safire2 and pilot at the 140 size, dropping to anything 135 will have to wait and will depend on the 140's, even though a 135 is still only 1.1 :$
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The only problem is that any canopy, regardless of wingloading, 150 and below is technically considered to be high performance. A light WL on a 135 is going to act and be a lot different than the same wingloading on, say, a 210.

I know where you're coming from - I'm only about 155-160 out the door and also dealt with canopy performance in my first couple hundred jumps. But I will say that I was very happy with 150 sized canopies up until fairly recently. I did about 350 jumps on a Pilot 150 that I loved. It opened great, flew nice and you can swoop them, regardless of what anyone tells you. I learned tons by flying it for as long as I did, and those essential skills I learned on a 'bigger' canopy have made transitioning into the smaller stuff a lot easier.

My advice, and take it for what it's worth, would be to stick with the 150. There's really no need for you to go any smaller than that for at least 100 or so jumps. The particular model will be up to you - try them ALL! Only you will know which one is right for you.

Have fun man and stay safe.

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I know plenty of jumpers with intermediate type 150-170 sized canopies at a WL of ~1:1, including 2 of my former teammates with ~ 600 jumps and I know a few other jumpers with more than 1000 jumps who "still" jump spectre, sabre, sabre2 etc 150s at ~ 1:1.

BTW don't know how many jumps you have, but over here you can't go smaller than a 150 untill you have at least 400 jumps and are current too, this is regardless of how lightweight you are (you're not THAT light actually, we had a few jumpers at 0.9:1 on a 120).

A 150 is already pretty HP, anything smaller definitely is.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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I doubt you would know the difference between a 135, a 139 and a 140 if it wasn't on the label.

If you don't want to jump a 135, you don't want to jump a 140.



But if I wouldn't know the difference between a 135 and a 140, the difference between a 140 and 150 can't be too much more significant especially concerning my WL?

I know sub 150 is considered HP no matter what, but that's just looking at numbers at not looking at specific cases ya know?
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One possible conclusion is you don't want to jump a 140. Another possible conclusion is you might want to jump a 135.

Rules aside (breaking rules is almost never smart), I*'d probably let you jump a 135 on a nice sunny day with medium winds, if I'd seen you fly your 155. Let you make up your own mind. Size isn't everything, lots of other design factors come into play. Line length, cell pressure, planform, airfoil, trim .. you might be better off under a Sabre 1 135, or under a Pilot 140, or a Silhouette 150. I don't know. To me, a 155, even a square one at .9:1, is high performance. A 135 is higher performance. I couldn't say if *you* are a high performance pilot. Or an even higher performance one.

You do want to be current to demo, demo, demo. So maybe waiting for the season isn't a bad plan. Get some first hand advice from someone who has seen you fly and land. And if you can't get a demo, how are you going to get your next canopy?

* But I am not your instructor. Talk to your instructor.
Johan.
I am. I think.

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And if you can't get a demo, how are you going to get your next canopy?



What..?

I follow you completely. I suppose what I was looking for here online was a loose order of which canopies perform a little more HP than others; but I suppose in the end I'd like to demo them all so it doesn't matter which I demo first, etc..

Thanks for the input guys
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And if you can't get a demo, how are you going to get your next canopy?



What..?

I follow you completely. I suppose what I was looking for here online was a loose order of which canopies perform a little more HP than others; but I suppose in the end I'd like to demo them all so it doesn't matter which I demo first, etc..

Thanks for the input guys



You can also ask around and see who has what type of canopy in your area. Then borrow and jump it for a jump or two. Ususally some beer will help ease this along;)

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around 200 on a pilot 1:1- and about 15 on a safire2 1:1. around 40 saber2 same WL. flew enough 7cells to know I definitely dont want one. I really liked the safire better than my pilot. I saw a significant difference in the "zippiness" in relation to us beginners and how we approach canopy flight.

Both the pilot and safire have great openings, but do snivel at times 800-1000ft (may wanna keep that RSL connected!), depending on your packjob. All this is very redundant, and this is only my very uneducated .02, but, another thing to keep in mind is that the pilot can be ordered with ZPX fabric, giving you much smaller pack volume with the same size canopy. edit to add: also the pulse has a thinner type fabric option, but I have not flown that canopy yet
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Its a fairly significant difference. Im sure someone will chime in, but I believe your 150 packs something like a 135 would. See, your in the same boat Im in, and since im always at work lately, I have nothing at all better to do with my time besides this website, so ive read alot of reviews on all the canopys I am looking at. Of course you will find that demoing canopies is the way to go and the industry has made it fairly easy to do so believe it or not!

But seriously, if you havent flown the safire2, definitely demo one before you make up your mind. For my taste, it was much more fun to fly. Sorry pilot lovers. The pilot is still a great canopy for our jump numbers though.
"We didn't start the fire"

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Yeah, I talked to someone credible that mentioned a Pilot 150 would pack something like a 160 or so.. either way it packs larger, right? So I didn't know if for example say it packs like a 160, would ZPx only bring it back down to a normal 150 or something smaller in addition?

I'm pretty set on the Safire2, I love what I've heard and read about it. So when I demo it I'll probably be putting an order in the same day B|
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