Can a high hard deck increase risks?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

daffes

I did revisit that, with around 30 jumps at the time, and learned better. Although, I wish I had never had to revisit that, and learned first time. I'd like to hear more from this student mal and why he took so long to chop, I wonder if it's related with how he learned about hard decks.

I don't know. The instruction wasn't as good as it perhaps could have been. Actual discussion of things like "hard decks" was not too common.

I wasn't there at the time, but here is the story I was able to put together from talking with several people who were there:

It was a later freefall jump in the S/L progression. He had been cleared for "solo supervision in freefall," so he could do solos. On this one, he went out with an instructor (not an AFF-I) and they did a 2 way. He wasn't watching his altimeter, even though the instructor kept pointing at his own and tapping it. They blew through planned breakoff (4500) and the instructor started pointing at the student (pull signal). The student was so into the jump, he just smiled and pointed back.
The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled. He said the student just laughed as he watched the instructor deploy and "get pulled up" (not really, but you know what I mean). The instructor was watching the student continue to fall, and started hoping that he wouldn't pull at all because he was getting very close to AAD altitude. At that time we used FXC 12000s in that particular rig and they had a very wide firing range.
The student finally realized he was all alone and getting low, so he pulled. The instructor said that the spring loaded main pilot chute came out within a second of the reserve pilot chute. Two out.
They opened together, and almost immediately went into a Front/Back downplane. The student didn't really understand what was going on, because he reached forward and grabbed the risers of the canopy in front and tried to steer it. Someone said he looked like he was driving a horse-drawn chariot.
He was already low to begin with, probably pulled around 1500 ft or so. The downplane happened immediately, and he was coming down really fast. He may have rode it for ten seconds or so. Not all that long.
He finally figured out what was happening and pulled his cutaway handle a couple hundred feet above the ground. Apparently just enough time for the reserve to level out and give him a survivable landing. He didn't unstow his brakes, or flare with the rears. He just PLF'd it. Bumps & bruises, but no real injury.
He got his ass chewed for ignoring his altimeter, instructor, and just about everything else. The "I'm yelling at you because I just watched you almost die!!" was a pretty effective argument. He had been something of a smart-ass, and didn't always listen.

He never came back again.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Skydivesg 6]

hillson

I didn't listen to the podcast but given all the concern it seems like the concepts could have been better presented.............


This stuff is situational. And, for the most part, similar within a nine iron, for *most* jumpers...avoiding the odd case you can argue forever.

It seems to me that this "podcast" gave some questionable advice - or at least phrased it poorly.

Like anything else when you're learning, if you hear / read something that sounds reasonable but it new to you...run it by someone qualified to give an opinion and talk it through. Every FJC is different and every podcast is different. Don't take them as gospel.

I'm not sure if this is the podcast being discussed or not. But one of the Jump 26 pocasts had a great interview with Dan BC who, most agree, knows his stuff. Do a search for his interview and take a listen. I'm interested to hear what you think.

https://www.facebook.com/jumptwentysix

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[JWest 0]

I generally pull around 3000". My average saddle altitude is 2400" according to my viso. If I don't like my main for whatever reason I plan to have it chopped by 1750, which is 1000" above my cypress firing altitude. It is also the Oh-shit alarm on my optima. This give me time to easily clear the speed for an AAD fire incase I don't pull and my RSL fails. For whatever reason if I don't chop by that time I will still chop down to about 1250, anything lower than that I'll go for my reserve and deal with whatever happens. I wouldn't really say I have a "hard deck" no matter the altitude do whatever you think is best for survival. I think that is more important the a defined number.

I should note that I jump a Spectre so my chances of having a spinning death main are lower than elliptical canopies.

[EatSleepFly 0]

wolfriverjoe

The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled.

Poor student or not, it sounds to me like the instructor did the bottom end entirely contrary to the IRM and contributed to the student's two-out.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

EatSleepFly

***
The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled.

Poor student or not, it sounds to me like the instructor did the bottom end entirely contrary to the IRM and contributed to the student's two-out.

I don't know. I'm not an instructor and have only read parts of the IRM. I won't argue with it.

He wasn't a very good instructor, IMO.
Notice that no names are mentioned.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[BIGUN 1,050]

Quote

he went out with an instructor (not an AFF-I) and they did a 2 way. He wasn't watching his altimeter, even though the instructor kept pointing at his own and tapping it. They blew through planned breakoff (4500) and the instructor started pointing at the student (pull signal). The student was so into the jump, he just smiled and pointed back.
The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled.

If I'm reading this correctly; based on the Instructor's rating as an SL/I, when he went out with the student, the Instructor was then acting in his capacity as Coach and did exactly as the IRM instructs. Signal, pull your own. An SL/I is not supposed to act in the capacity of an AFF/I and pull for the student.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[jclalor 12]

Without my glasses, I thought this was a completely different topic.

[billvon 2,384]

I generally use two terms when talking with students:

Hard deck/decision altitude - this is the altitude that you have to make the decision to keep your canopy or cut it away and deploy your reserve

Never cut away below - this is the altitude that you never cut away below. The example that I use is that someone flies into your perfectly good main and shreds it. The landing will not be survivable. In this case, above 1000 feet, cut away and open your reserve. Below 1000 feet, open your reserve.

[sammielu 3]

AFF Instructors can deploy for students, no other type of instructor has that training & approval. Pulling for the student was not an option in the given example.

Anytime instructors are flying with students, it is our responsibility to pull on time. If the instructor deploys at the planned student deployment altitude, students have more time to realize that they should deploy their own canopy before they go any lower and compound the risk.

[billvon 2,384]

>AFF Instructors can deploy for students, no other type of instructor has
>that training & approval.

Right. But what does that have to do with what I posted? Decision altitude and never-cut-away-below altitude both generally occur when the AFF-I is not there.

[lyosha 46]

My last cutaway had me under a good canopy in 400 ft. If I have 500 ft. and suddenly need to, I'm chopping, but that's just my personal rule. Everyone sets limits for themselves.

[hillson 0]

Hi sandy:

I had a nice reply but it was eaten by my iPad. So in condensed form:

I listened to both Ep 5 where you talk about MARDs and the "hard deck" and Ep 8 where the hard deck issue was covered in greater depth with DanBC. So confessing I assumed something (we all know what happens when onendoes that...) based on reading two threads on the issue and reading comments from those that listened to the podcast. They have much merit and are a very good source of continuing education - especially around Safety Day.

In sum, I found both conversations completely intelligible without a lot of required "what did he mean" interpretation. Likewise, I'd say that most people that have earned an A license could intuit the intent. I can also see how the lack of gnats ass specificity *could* be confusing. I see that more of a feature than a bug, however. As noted in Ep 8, I believe, that there is a certain "fluidity" to skydiving that means know e lifesaving rules but you have to react to what you see...and that there isn't a decision tree for every 100 feet of the jump. There have been comments in a few threads now that "I heard it on e podcast" where I'm not sure that "message transmitted" equals "message received." (where I suspect you'll find your answer to the "Skyhook limits the reserve bridle to a 5 foot launch (in the incidents thread...)).

With respect to "hard deck" the threads, the podcast etc recognize thst it is a bit of a goofy term that has no defined meaning but that everyone uses. As it applies to the OP's question...his definition is not what is taught during instruction (at least I hope not...), isn't what is implied on the podcasts nor is it what was written in the Skydive Mag article - it, too, conflates decision altitude and hard deck. No biggie...we all get it. I think that my points were 1) this is an instructional or comprehension issue and 2) to seek clarification from an actual instructor instead of engaging in a SIM rewrite.

Like all other skydiving rules of there we have altitude decision gates on every jump: when to pull, when to decide-and-act and when it is time to hit silver only because you've run yourself out of Schlitz. These simple guidelines keep us safe and adding to them with a 1,001 squishy situations confuses what should be simple decisions.

I guess that was my long winded point to the OP. The podcasts are good...but long. A tool to add a bit to the luck bucket that should be crosschecked with an instructor if there are questions. Just like anything else.

M

[tred 0]

i agree the podcasts are good and the discussions in the podcasts have made me think about things I was not thinking about... which in turn has led me to better understand those things. With out the podcasts or threads on this forum I may never have thought about the difference between hard deck and decision altitude.

any way I really enjoy the podcasts so keep them coming sandy

[rastapara 0]

Your decision, but that leaves little margin for the unexpected IMO... (altimeters can be off by a 100 ft for example, your rigger had a bad day, you know, the unexpected. Results in the past are never a guarantee for the future.)

At that altitude I'd prefer landing with more nylon then Id bargained for rather then an opening reserve still at line stretch... but hey,you pay your dues and you take your chances...

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

[jurgencamps 0]

rastapara

Your decision, but that leaves little margin for the unexpected IMO... (altimeters can be off by a 100 ft for example, your rigger had a bad day, you know, the unexpected. Results in the past are never a guarantee for the future.)

At that altitude I'd prefer landing with more nylon then Id bargained for rather than an opening reserve still at line stretch... but hey, you pay your dues and you take your chances...

I personally saw the next incident:
Skydiver 1 was flying a good standard landing pattern and was already way below 1000 ft in the last straight line. Skydiver 2 hooked in (90 °) and hits skydiver 1's canopy from above and cut it almost in two. Skydiver 1 starts spinning around very aggressively.
Skydiver 2 lands with a broken leg, skydiver 1 cuts away the main and pulls reserve. Slider is down but Skydiver 1 never had the time to release the brakes. But she made a safe landing.

Sometimes you don't have much options or time to think first and act later.

[rastapara 0]

Wow, seems like a situation I would not like to be in. Lots of factors beyond your control, especially for skydiver 1. Nice to know that it played out like it did, seems like it could've ended a lot worse for both parties involved.

How ever: you pay your dues and you take your chances *

* Disclaimer, I was using the search function to find these examples, cherrypicking if you will. I might be wrong, and in some situations/scenarios lifetimes and or universes you might be better of with a low cutaway then the more nylon option. And admitted, better to make any decision when low then none at all...(re: thinking/acting/time) but then again low cutaways do have a bad rep IMO...

Parachute gear garage sale at :http://www.usedparachutes.eu

[douwanto 22]

I died because the book said......... is that what you want you tombstone to read?


Canopy transfer or cutaway are tools. use them when you need them unless it will kill you to use them unless not using them will kill you then use them any way. Hope that clears things up.

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421

[ufk22 32]

BIGUN

Quote

he went out with an instructor (not an AFF-I) and they did a 2 way. He wasn't watching his altimeter, even though the instructor kept pointing at his own and tapping it. They blew through planned breakoff (4500) and the instructor started pointing at the student (pull signal). The student was so into the jump, he just smiled and pointed back.
The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled.

If I'm reading this correctly; based on the Instructor's rating as an SL/I, when he went out with the student, the Instructor was then acting in his capacity as Coach and did exactly as the IRM instructs. Signal, pull your own. An SL/I is not supposed to act in the capacity of an AFF/I and pull for the student.

No, he did not do as the IRM recommends.
As coach, the procedure is wave off, if student is still unresponsive, turn and track to gain sufficient separation and deploy by 3500'.
Deployment being the final signal that it's time.
Doing a practice pull isn't a signal a student is trained to respond to, and waiting til 2500' and deploying in place is stupid and dangerous.

This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

[BIGUN 1,050]

ufk22

***

Quote

he went out with an instructor (not an AFF-I) and they did a 2 way. He wasn't watching his altimeter, even though the instructor kept pointing at his own and tapping it. They blew through planned breakoff (4500) and the instructor started pointing at the student (pull signal). The student was so into the jump, he just smiled and pointed back.
The instructor kept pointing, and then did a "practice pull" sort of thing to try and get the message across, but it didn't make any difference. At 2500, the instructor simply waved "Bye-bye" and pulled.

If I'm reading this correctly; based on the Instructor's rating as an SL/I, when he went out with the student, the Instructor was then acting in his capacity as Coach and did exactly as the IRM instructs. Signal, pull your own. An SL/I is not supposed to act in the capacity of an AFF/I and pull for the student.

No, he did not do as the IRM recommends.
As coach, the procedure is wave off, if student is still unresponsive, turn and track to gain sufficient separation and deploy by 3500'.
Deployment being the final signal that it's time.
Doing a practice pull isn't a signal a student is trained to respond to, and waiting til 2500' and deploying in place is stupid and dangerous.

You're right, I did not read it correctly.
Your response is as the IRM states.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.