kelpdiver 2 #26 September 9, 2004 Quoteat least there is BASE jumping.. ya dont need a plane for that And the national parks have been directed to be reasonable with requests for access. Might be legal soon, though I imagine it's asking a lot to get Yosemite on the list. Hopefully the BASE jumpers will eventually get at least an annual El Cap Day and a Half Dome Day. And for those of us afraid of being so close to the ground or the cliff, we can start suspending rickety bridges across really tall gorges and still get in a little freefall time. Back to the original subject - people are betting a lot of money on SkyVenture tunnels. If they're right, I'd expepct to see some good crossover for regular (non tandem) jumping as well. But it's never going to be a mainstay sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
luckky 0 #27 September 9, 2004 2fat2fly,,,can't say THANK YOU enough for your generosity of the lift ticks for p-nut and i's wedding jump at WFFC this yr..wish i knew how to get stills from the DVD that was made of the jump i would send ya a pic,,it was a great day to liv.. liv 2 luv liv2liv lucky summoo1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #28 September 9, 2004 >But it's never going to be a mainstay sport. Its getting to be that I'd almost rather go play in the tunnel for some types of flying. You learn faster, can do things you can't do in freefall and don't have clueless idiots trying to kill you all the time.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
windcatcher 0 #29 September 9, 2004 I don't know why you guys think skydiving is going downhill, because even though I've been in the sport 4 years,I'm still a newbie. All I can think of is humans have an innate yearning for SOMETHING, and if they find something they think can satisfy that yearning, they will pursue that thing (like skydiving) until that no longer fulfills them. Skydiving is fun, but it CANNOT validate your soul and the reason for living. (oh, I know I stepped on someone's toes!) Sarah Mother to the cutest little thing in the world... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eiley 0 #30 September 9, 2004 Here in Australia, at least, I think skydiving peaked in the early-mid 1990's. It's certainly in a deep lull at the moment. The two things I recall that made the sport go through the roof were the release of 'Point Break' and we also had a Coca-Cola ad featuring skysurfing which really got the phones ringing. None of the other skydiving-themed films have done for the sport what 'Point Break' did. I think the current downturn is due to the economy but also due to the fact that there are now so many things competing for our 'entertainment' time that weren't around before. nothing to see here Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bodyflight.Net 0 #31 September 9, 2004 Quote You learn faster, can do things you can't do in freefall and don't have clueless idiots trying to kill you all the time. Your in good company for sure! but every so often, I still love a good jump Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #32 September 9, 2004 QuoteThe future of private aviation including skydiving is certainly not very good. I doubt there will be any skydiving at all in a few years....It is not the highest priority in the scheme of things that makes the world go around. Bill Cole D-41 I disagree on the first part -- and steadfastly hope you are wrong. On the final part, I disagree -- I think things that make life enjoyable should be the highest priority. The things that make the world go around (commerce, etc.) should be relegated to being, simply, the things we do so that we can spare the leisure to do the things that make life beautiful and fun. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #33 September 9, 2004 Quoteit's your imagination. skydiving is still very popular. otherwise, explain how we have had weekdays with 30-some-odd tandems scheduled... more work than we can sometimes handle... and at least 20 new regular experienced jumpers in the past few months alone. the economy will always take its toll on all pass times and luxuries. sometimes it will be up, sometimes down. skydiving is expensive and a lot of people have lost jobs in the past few years. my take... we are in a down point, but it is not a permanent slide. things will get better as they always do. IMO The skydiving industry/sport has evolved to catering to the tandem AFF folks due to the profit margin vs reguler jumpers. Load organisers free video for fun jumpers? sorry that's not cost effective. If the AFF and tandem folks stay around long enough to get some nice gear before they quit and the skydiving industry has enough Tandem & AFF instructors to cater to the cash cows, This will allow the sport/business to continue but the service that the fun jumper's can expect will decline while their costs to jump will continue to rise. Not complaining just calling it the way I see it. We all have a choice. The net is freeR.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #34 September 9, 2004 Quote-- I think things that make life enjoyable should be the highest priority. The things that make the world go around (commerce, etc.) should be relegated to being, simply, the things we do so that we can spare the leisure to do the things that make life beautiful and fun *** perfect, I couldn't have said it better.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Airman1270 0 #35 September 9, 2004 ...The 30 currency rule is another hardship on low time jumpers, and I think it is extremely unfair. I have seen many jumpers who were active when "static line" was the only way to learn, and some left the scene for a month or two, came back and picked up where they left off, without any problem.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Right on, Bill. I went through the static line course near Albany, NY in the early/mid 1980's. Due to money and a four-hour drive from Long Island, it was normal for me to go as much as two months or more between DZ trips. I'd just pick up where I'd left off, and didn't think anything of it. I knew my progression was not as dramatic as that of my peers who were jumping every week, but I never thought my safety was compromised. After graduation this schedule remained pretty much the same. In 1988-'89, when I had fewer than 150 jumps, I made fewer than 10 jumps per year (long story) and had breaks of up to seven months between jumps. When I was finally able to get to a DZ I received a short briefing followed by a solo delay. Piece of cake! No tandem, no "refresher" instruction, no added expense, no paranoid nail-biting that I was a hole in the ground waiting to happen. When we ask why the public schools censor references to Christianity, they claim they're trying to be sensitive to people who might be "offended." In reality this attitude is training people to interpret such things as "offensive" and encouraging them to react with hostility. In the same way, these recently-imposed ill-conceived regulations, such as the 30-day rule, mandatory AAD use, etc. encourage newer jumpers to interpret the failure to observe these regulations as "dangerous." USPA would do well to reconsider its current approach toward micro-managing DZ operations, or the only people considered qualified to skydive will be those who can afford to make 200+ jumps per year and who spend little time doing anything else. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #36 September 9, 2004 I think much of the nonsense of a 30 dfay recurrency rule is an agreement between USPA dropzone owners and the USPA rule makers. It is a sanctioned money grab, a means of putting your hard earned currency into their pockets.That is whats behind the "currency " jump rule. Take a look throiugh the forums at the growing number of people who have made a few jumps, and are being screwed by this stupid rule which restricts them from making more jumps unless they have someone hold their hand from the time they geton the plane till their canopy opens. Paying to have an instructor to hold their hand is the extra cost that most cannot afford, and they really don't need it. No matter what the student wants to do, the DZs tack a cost on it....things that should be free to encourage students to keep jumping, not drive them away. I know of one DZ owner and his wife, who publicly stated they were out to make as much money by any means possible this summer, so they could build a retirement nest egg. I saw things being done, put on all jumpers, and even non jumpers, that I would never believe possible a few years ago. Greed...greed seems to be the driving force at "some" dropzones. Far too many rules and regul;ations....far too many people walking away from the sport. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites slug 1 #37 September 9, 2004 Hi Chuteless Times change. DZ's only make a limited amount of money off of fun jumpers. We all know where the real money comes from. Back in the day a weekend of FJC of s/l students would take a couple of hours to throw out of the plane and was a nice payday for the DZO. Now there's enough Big money students that have allowed the DZO's to cange their business model. No problem it's the DZO's business and they can run it the way the want to as long as the big money folks keep on showing up. After the glory days are over a couple of fun jumper will chip in and buy a cessna and the cycle will start over again. Don't worry be happy, the DZO's are providing a service for those that can afford it their not in it for charity. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #38 September 9, 2004 Its like any other business....When some people devise ways of turning a low paying sport into a big money venture, they arent going to worry about being greedy. I remember when the National Hockey League players were making $7000.00 a year. Times have changed, so have hockey ticket prices. Skydiving isnt a spectator sport like hockey, and the not so rich jumper is now expected to buy a rig worth more than his car or anything else he owns. "SOME" dropzone owners are greedy, but things like the currency rule of 30 days is unjust, unfair, and uncalled for. It should be flexible , but many DZs use it as a hard fast rule which puts $$$$ into their pockets.They pretend its a safety factor...its a greed factor. Newer jumpers are struggling, and the 30 day rule is not as necessary as USPA OR the DZOs would have you believe. This penalizing the newer student jumopsr is driving them away from skydiving. There have been numerous postings on dropzone.com that show as much . Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #39 September 9, 2004 QuoteNewer jumpers are struggling, and the 30 day rule is not as necessary as USPA OR the DZOs would have you believe. This penalizing the newer student jumopsr is driving them away from skydiving. There have been numerous postings on dropzone.com that show as much You know, the majority of 30-day recurrancy training I've seen was an AFF instructor chatting with the student for 15 minutes or so and reveiwing emergancy proceedures before they do their jump. The only thing that the student pays for is the normal student jump. They don't pay for the "extra" training or anything, just like they were doing another AFF jump. I personally think the 30 day recurrancy for a student is a good thing, but I think it can be taken to out of hand extremes; however, I believe that the majority of DZs out there aren't screwing over people. There are probably a few, but I believe that a lot of instructors want to see their student succeed and understand that trying to squeeze an extra $20 out of a student won't really help them, may actually hurt them by pushing the student out of the sport. Nevermind that it's a shitty thing to do.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChasingBlueSky 0 #40 September 9, 2004 Close to this subject, did anyone else notice that SD Las Vegas was sold and that Mirage is up for sale as well? I also recently overheard that one of the photography related companies in this sport was going to call it quits soon (more due to time/years spent in the sport than money related)_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #41 September 9, 2004 please note I said "SOME"....not all. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tspillers 0 #42 September 9, 2004 As far as you recurrency issue: I can only speak for our DZ and policy, but the 30 day rule for a student is as follows per the SIM: REVIEW all standar procedures Practice harness emergency drills (which should be done every 30 days for a student anyway) A reveiw, depending on the student, can be very quick. If it takes 4 hours, then it wasn't a review, it was a retrain and maybe they should be charged. We charge $25 for a full refresher ground school and all the money goes to the instructor. Even these have only taken 2-3 hours max. Usually the instructor says that didn't take that long, only charge them $X. The ground preps as taught at an AFF Cert are longer than most reviews take. Of course candidates are still learning good techniques for doing this. Most AFF instructors would want to spend time reviewing with a student even if it had only been 2 weeks. It may not be as lengthy, but they want to spot check knowledge as make sure the student is in the game. The only way to measure your teaching is if learning has occured. The only was to do that is 'test' generally by asking questions ie. a review. I don't doubt that you have seen DZ's take extreme advantage of this, but I don't think it is the norm. I generally try to plan a recurrency dive so that if all is going as expected, we also accomplish some tasks they need toward their license. For a licensed jumper needing a recurrency that is from our DZ I take it on a case by case basis. The most I have charged them for was a coach dive. I have sometimes had them cover slots and pack. Most often I have even paid for my slot and pack. My goal is to train well skilled and knowledgeable skydivers. An A license skydiver at our DZ knows more about skydiving and has more skill then I had at 80 jumps. (That's not saying much). I even remember a couple of years ago when I had a packer who had been listening in on an A-license oral quiz, come up to me and say, "I think they know more about skydiving than I do." I don't think skydiving is going downhill. I think that it has and will continue to evolve. Better education and skills training is helping to keep more low timers in the sport because they don't get frustrated as easily. People get out of skydiving every year. People quit riding motorcycles every year. People quit, skiing, boating, golfing, flying, etc. This is a hobby for most. Peoples hobbies, responsibilities, and interests change. That is just a fact of life. I have had many friends decide to not jump anymore and I respect, even if I don't agree with the reasoning, their decisions. Some of them still frequent DZ's because of friendships. I'll step off my soap box now. Just been following the thread and wanted to put in another angle. Todd I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #43 September 9, 2004 Quote You know, the majority of 30-day recurrancy training I've seen was an AFF instructor chatting with the student for 15 minutes or so and reveiwing emergancy proceedures before they do their jump. The only thing that the student pays for is the normal student jump. They don't pay for the "extra" training or anything, just like they were doing another AFF jump. Maybe there, Dave, but it wasn't the case out here. Maybe if I got weathered out a few times to cause the 30 day delay I'd get a break, but otherwise, it was $$ time. So when I did go over, rather than come back in 45 days, I ended up taking 6 months off. Is the 30 day limit unfair? Not as sure. For me, that much time off between AFF jumps usually lead to bad results, particularly with backsliding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CrazyThomas 0 #44 September 9, 2004 Quote I really have no call on the influence of 9/11 or economic issues. They may play a role, but I see it as the tail end of a trend. Skydiving was just such an 'in' thing to do for a bunch of years. It made you a more interesting person at work and parties. People would go "ooooo, that's incredible". Now the trendy 'skydivers' tell their story and over half the room comes up with, "Yeah, I'm a skydiver too". I think it's run it's course and people are on to looking for the next 'in' thing. Someone responded with a comment about missing the old days of skydiving. It's like being in any wonderful relationship. Rather than lament it's passing, I rejoyce that I was around to be part of it. YMMV, Michael Agreed with the trendy thing. At least in America, it's all about being with the trend. Skydiving has taken a turn from the people that do it for love of the sport, to an amusement park ride, where DZ's will train you, and strap you into the ride, and hit the GO button to make the roller coaster start. No, I haven't been around as long as someone like Bill Cole has, but in my small little 6 years of this sport, I have met various types of people. Some do the sport because they love it, and can't spend a day without thinking about it. Other people do the sport because it is now a safe sport (usually the ones who say "Safer than driving there"), and it is simply what everyone else is doing. Look at the contents of this post. For christ's sake, get out of the fucking sport if you think it is going downhill. Fuck off and leave the sport alone. It's better off without you, if you stand around and ask: "Is this still cool guys? Are we still bad-asses?" Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #45 September 9, 2004 the not so rich jumper is now expected to buy a rig worth more than his car or anything else he owns the currency rule of 30 days is unjust, unfair, and uncalled for They pretend its a safety factor...its a greed factor. ===================================== Really? No jumper is expected to buy anything. There is better, higher performing equipment available on the market. There is also a weath of used equipment at various pricing levels. A jumper who wants to skydive like it's 1981 can do so for about the same cost as a rig in 1981 (counting inflation). If you want to skydive like it's 2004 (which it is), it's going to cost a premium. You will get better, safer, and more capable equipment for your additional investment, so more jumpers are going with the good stuff. Which leads us to the 30 currency plan. Skydiving ala 2004 needs a 30 requirement. The aforementioned higher performance equipment, combined with the newer styles of skydiving demand a certain amount of currency to be safe. People who doubt this should look to the examples of the old timers who return to the sport after a long layoff. While they may have been proficient in thier day, on the equipment of their day, they find themselves over thier heads on todays modern gear. Fortunately they have years of experience on their side, so when the gear (and their refusal to accept it's potential) gets the better of them, they come away with, lets say, a broken foot, while a jumper without thier backround, would be far worse for the ware. The community is currently suffering from it's total lack of preparedness for the new generation of canopies. The slow response in the training department to accompany these canopies has sent many a jumper to the ER or the grave. As skydiving becomes more complex with ever escalating levels of performance in all areas (canopies, freefall, aircraft, etc) it would be negligent to reduce the currency requirements. This is a different day than you are used to. Jumpers have different expectaitons for themselves, and their equipment. People want to do 10 or 12 jumps per day, they want a ZP canopy that will open soft, flare easily, and give them a 30 ft surf on a straight in landing. These are things that were not possible 20 years ago, but you know what IT'S NOT 20 YEARS AGO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chuteless 1 #46 September 9, 2004 Dave: I think you've "Butchered" the truth in your posting. I hope he made it worthwhile for you. I'm not surprised considering the DZ you jump at. Jumping/flying is no different now than 20 yrs ago, the body reacts to what you do in freefall now as it did then, and equipment used then can still bring a person down safely. It may not have the forward speed of today's canopies, or the ability to flare to a very soft landing, but I've made many many standups on C9 canopies, and PLFs looked after the rest. You wouldnt likely be aware of that since you weren't jumping back then., but either was your "mentor". Sometimes a ankle might break, but that can happen on 2004 equipment...there are several listed this year across the USA, on the forums of DZ.com The 30 day currency is for the most part, a money grab by greedy DZ owners. They take advantage of people kept on the ground by weather, and they keep many people from taking part in skydiving because of it. Thats "one" of the reasons skydiving is going "downhill". Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 15 #47 September 9, 2004 Bill, I don't know why you think the 30 day currency thing is a big deal. I know people that have shown up, rented gear and jumped after not jumping for a year+ and no one even talked to them about their emergency procedures or anything more then "nice to see you again!" All the currency training that I've seen are more like "Made a jump in the last 30 days? Yep. Good we can skip over the emergency procedures refresher then" If they are still on student status they are going to have to do the next level, levels are priced before hand and I'm yet to see a DZ tack on an extra fee for a level for training. And for those post A licence... if $20 for not jumping in 3 months keeps them from jumping how the hell are they going to afford gear or to jump? Back in the day you had Cessna's, Beech's or the really big DZ's had DC3's. The cost of an Otter is a few times more then the DC3. Half million to million dollar aircraft are becoming the norm for jump operations. You want cheap jump tickets? Fly in an uninsured, poorly maintained Cessna at a renagade DZ. Thats where men are men, and everyone else dies when the plane crashes. 30 years ago an 10 way was a big deal. Now days jumpers with less then 50 jumps can do multipoint 10 ways. Body flight has progressed many times over compared to the skills from the 60's and 70's. Out of my 800 jumps there are probally only 40 I did'nt stand up. My most severe injury was from a round. The "good old days were'nt always so good of days" is the phrase a very experienced jumper told me as they were carting me off the field from that landing. You know whats killing the sport? Nothing. There is a 10x growth over 30 years ago. There are more skydives being done at 3 or 4 DZ's in a year then were done all across the world 30 years ago. Jumpers are jumping more, and there are more jumpers. Nothing at all wrong with that picture. Sure some people leave, but others come along to replace them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cocheese 0 #48 September 9, 2004 Stands up and claps.Bravo !Can we all just get on a load now ? Maybe this weekend ? or are we all doomed ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davelepka 4 #49 September 10, 2004 Nice job missing every point I made. Despite your inferences otherwise, the post consisted of my opinion, without influence from others. I have only been working at that DZ for a short while in respect to how long I have been skydiving. I came on staff with my own viewpoints, some of them contrary to the mangement, and have stood by my views all along, openly and publicly. The reason you assume that the management of that DZ had an influence on my post is because you're getting the same message from both of us. Take a look at the thread, you're getting the same message from quite a few people. It's not a coincidence, it's beacuse you're wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
Airman1270 0 #35 September 9, 2004 ...The 30 currency rule is another hardship on low time jumpers, and I think it is extremely unfair. I have seen many jumpers who were active when "static line" was the only way to learn, and some left the scene for a month or two, came back and picked up where they left off, without any problem.... _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Right on, Bill. I went through the static line course near Albany, NY in the early/mid 1980's. Due to money and a four-hour drive from Long Island, it was normal for me to go as much as two months or more between DZ trips. I'd just pick up where I'd left off, and didn't think anything of it. I knew my progression was not as dramatic as that of my peers who were jumping every week, but I never thought my safety was compromised. After graduation this schedule remained pretty much the same. In 1988-'89, when I had fewer than 150 jumps, I made fewer than 10 jumps per year (long story) and had breaks of up to seven months between jumps. When I was finally able to get to a DZ I received a short briefing followed by a solo delay. Piece of cake! No tandem, no "refresher" instruction, no added expense, no paranoid nail-biting that I was a hole in the ground waiting to happen. When we ask why the public schools censor references to Christianity, they claim they're trying to be sensitive to people who might be "offended." In reality this attitude is training people to interpret such things as "offensive" and encouraging them to react with hostility. In the same way, these recently-imposed ill-conceived regulations, such as the 30-day rule, mandatory AAD use, etc. encourage newer jumpers to interpret the failure to observe these regulations as "dangerous." USPA would do well to reconsider its current approach toward micro-managing DZ operations, or the only people considered qualified to skydive will be those who can afford to make 200+ jumps per year and who spend little time doing anything else. Cheers, Jon S. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #36 September 9, 2004 I think much of the nonsense of a 30 dfay recurrency rule is an agreement between USPA dropzone owners and the USPA rule makers. It is a sanctioned money grab, a means of putting your hard earned currency into their pockets.That is whats behind the "currency " jump rule. Take a look throiugh the forums at the growing number of people who have made a few jumps, and are being screwed by this stupid rule which restricts them from making more jumps unless they have someone hold their hand from the time they geton the plane till their canopy opens. Paying to have an instructor to hold their hand is the extra cost that most cannot afford, and they really don't need it. No matter what the student wants to do, the DZs tack a cost on it....things that should be free to encourage students to keep jumping, not drive them away. I know of one DZ owner and his wife, who publicly stated they were out to make as much money by any means possible this summer, so they could build a retirement nest egg. I saw things being done, put on all jumpers, and even non jumpers, that I would never believe possible a few years ago. Greed...greed seems to be the driving force at "some" dropzones. Far too many rules and regul;ations....far too many people walking away from the sport. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slug 1 #37 September 9, 2004 Hi Chuteless Times change. DZ's only make a limited amount of money off of fun jumpers. We all know where the real money comes from. Back in the day a weekend of FJC of s/l students would take a couple of hours to throw out of the plane and was a nice payday for the DZO. Now there's enough Big money students that have allowed the DZO's to cange their business model. No problem it's the DZO's business and they can run it the way the want to as long as the big money folks keep on showing up. After the glory days are over a couple of fun jumper will chip in and buy a cessna and the cycle will start over again. Don't worry be happy, the DZO's are providing a service for those that can afford it their not in it for charity. R.I.P. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #38 September 9, 2004 Its like any other business....When some people devise ways of turning a low paying sport into a big money venture, they arent going to worry about being greedy. I remember when the National Hockey League players were making $7000.00 a year. Times have changed, so have hockey ticket prices. Skydiving isnt a spectator sport like hockey, and the not so rich jumper is now expected to buy a rig worth more than his car or anything else he owns. "SOME" dropzone owners are greedy, but things like the currency rule of 30 days is unjust, unfair, and uncalled for. It should be flexible , but many DZs use it as a hard fast rule which puts $$$$ into their pockets.They pretend its a safety factor...its a greed factor. Newer jumpers are struggling, and the 30 day rule is not as necessary as USPA OR the DZOs would have you believe. This penalizing the newer student jumopsr is driving them away from skydiving. There have been numerous postings on dropzone.com that show as much . Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #39 September 9, 2004 QuoteNewer jumpers are struggling, and the 30 day rule is not as necessary as USPA OR the DZOs would have you believe. This penalizing the newer student jumopsr is driving them away from skydiving. There have been numerous postings on dropzone.com that show as much You know, the majority of 30-day recurrancy training I've seen was an AFF instructor chatting with the student for 15 minutes or so and reveiwing emergancy proceedures before they do their jump. The only thing that the student pays for is the normal student jump. They don't pay for the "extra" training or anything, just like they were doing another AFF jump. I personally think the 30 day recurrancy for a student is a good thing, but I think it can be taken to out of hand extremes; however, I believe that the majority of DZs out there aren't screwing over people. There are probably a few, but I believe that a lot of instructors want to see their student succeed and understand that trying to squeeze an extra $20 out of a student won't really help them, may actually hurt them by pushing the student out of the sport. Nevermind that it's a shitty thing to do.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #40 September 9, 2004 Close to this subject, did anyone else notice that SD Las Vegas was sold and that Mirage is up for sale as well? I also recently overheard that one of the photography related companies in this sport was going to call it quits soon (more due to time/years spent in the sport than money related)_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #41 September 9, 2004 please note I said "SOME"....not all. Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tspillers 0 #42 September 9, 2004 As far as you recurrency issue: I can only speak for our DZ and policy, but the 30 day rule for a student is as follows per the SIM: REVIEW all standar procedures Practice harness emergency drills (which should be done every 30 days for a student anyway) A reveiw, depending on the student, can be very quick. If it takes 4 hours, then it wasn't a review, it was a retrain and maybe they should be charged. We charge $25 for a full refresher ground school and all the money goes to the instructor. Even these have only taken 2-3 hours max. Usually the instructor says that didn't take that long, only charge them $X. The ground preps as taught at an AFF Cert are longer than most reviews take. Of course candidates are still learning good techniques for doing this. Most AFF instructors would want to spend time reviewing with a student even if it had only been 2 weeks. It may not be as lengthy, but they want to spot check knowledge as make sure the student is in the game. The only way to measure your teaching is if learning has occured. The only was to do that is 'test' generally by asking questions ie. a review. I don't doubt that you have seen DZ's take extreme advantage of this, but I don't think it is the norm. I generally try to plan a recurrency dive so that if all is going as expected, we also accomplish some tasks they need toward their license. For a licensed jumper needing a recurrency that is from our DZ I take it on a case by case basis. The most I have charged them for was a coach dive. I have sometimes had them cover slots and pack. Most often I have even paid for my slot and pack. My goal is to train well skilled and knowledgeable skydivers. An A license skydiver at our DZ knows more about skydiving and has more skill then I had at 80 jumps. (That's not saying much). I even remember a couple of years ago when I had a packer who had been listening in on an A-license oral quiz, come up to me and say, "I think they know more about skydiving than I do." I don't think skydiving is going downhill. I think that it has and will continue to evolve. Better education and skills training is helping to keep more low timers in the sport because they don't get frustrated as easily. People get out of skydiving every year. People quit riding motorcycles every year. People quit, skiing, boating, golfing, flying, etc. This is a hobby for most. Peoples hobbies, responsibilities, and interests change. That is just a fact of life. I have had many friends decide to not jump anymore and I respect, even if I don't agree with the reasoning, their decisions. Some of them still frequent DZ's because of friendships. I'll step off my soap box now. Just been following the thread and wanted to put in another angle. Todd I am not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #43 September 9, 2004 Quote You know, the majority of 30-day recurrancy training I've seen was an AFF instructor chatting with the student for 15 minutes or so and reveiwing emergancy proceedures before they do their jump. The only thing that the student pays for is the normal student jump. They don't pay for the "extra" training or anything, just like they were doing another AFF jump. Maybe there, Dave, but it wasn't the case out here. Maybe if I got weathered out a few times to cause the 30 day delay I'd get a break, but otherwise, it was $$ time. So when I did go over, rather than come back in 45 days, I ended up taking 6 months off. Is the 30 day limit unfair? Not as sure. For me, that much time off between AFF jumps usually lead to bad results, particularly with backsliding. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyThomas 0 #44 September 9, 2004 Quote I really have no call on the influence of 9/11 or economic issues. They may play a role, but I see it as the tail end of a trend. Skydiving was just such an 'in' thing to do for a bunch of years. It made you a more interesting person at work and parties. People would go "ooooo, that's incredible". Now the trendy 'skydivers' tell their story and over half the room comes up with, "Yeah, I'm a skydiver too". I think it's run it's course and people are on to looking for the next 'in' thing. Someone responded with a comment about missing the old days of skydiving. It's like being in any wonderful relationship. Rather than lament it's passing, I rejoyce that I was around to be part of it. YMMV, Michael Agreed with the trendy thing. At least in America, it's all about being with the trend. Skydiving has taken a turn from the people that do it for love of the sport, to an amusement park ride, where DZ's will train you, and strap you into the ride, and hit the GO button to make the roller coaster start. No, I haven't been around as long as someone like Bill Cole has, but in my small little 6 years of this sport, I have met various types of people. Some do the sport because they love it, and can't spend a day without thinking about it. Other people do the sport because it is now a safe sport (usually the ones who say "Safer than driving there"), and it is simply what everyone else is doing. Look at the contents of this post. For christ's sake, get out of the fucking sport if you think it is going downhill. Fuck off and leave the sport alone. It's better off without you, if you stand around and ask: "Is this still cool guys? Are we still bad-asses?" Thomas Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #45 September 9, 2004 the not so rich jumper is now expected to buy a rig worth more than his car or anything else he owns the currency rule of 30 days is unjust, unfair, and uncalled for They pretend its a safety factor...its a greed factor. ===================================== Really? No jumper is expected to buy anything. There is better, higher performing equipment available on the market. There is also a weath of used equipment at various pricing levels. A jumper who wants to skydive like it's 1981 can do so for about the same cost as a rig in 1981 (counting inflation). If you want to skydive like it's 2004 (which it is), it's going to cost a premium. You will get better, safer, and more capable equipment for your additional investment, so more jumpers are going with the good stuff. Which leads us to the 30 currency plan. Skydiving ala 2004 needs a 30 requirement. The aforementioned higher performance equipment, combined with the newer styles of skydiving demand a certain amount of currency to be safe. People who doubt this should look to the examples of the old timers who return to the sport after a long layoff. While they may have been proficient in thier day, on the equipment of their day, they find themselves over thier heads on todays modern gear. Fortunately they have years of experience on their side, so when the gear (and their refusal to accept it's potential) gets the better of them, they come away with, lets say, a broken foot, while a jumper without thier backround, would be far worse for the ware. The community is currently suffering from it's total lack of preparedness for the new generation of canopies. The slow response in the training department to accompany these canopies has sent many a jumper to the ER or the grave. As skydiving becomes more complex with ever escalating levels of performance in all areas (canopies, freefall, aircraft, etc) it would be negligent to reduce the currency requirements. This is a different day than you are used to. Jumpers have different expectaitons for themselves, and their equipment. People want to do 10 or 12 jumps per day, they want a ZP canopy that will open soft, flare easily, and give them a 30 ft surf on a straight in landing. These are things that were not possible 20 years ago, but you know what IT'S NOT 20 YEARS AGO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuteless 1 #46 September 9, 2004 Dave: I think you've "Butchered" the truth in your posting. I hope he made it worthwhile for you. I'm not surprised considering the DZ you jump at. Jumping/flying is no different now than 20 yrs ago, the body reacts to what you do in freefall now as it did then, and equipment used then can still bring a person down safely. It may not have the forward speed of today's canopies, or the ability to flare to a very soft landing, but I've made many many standups on C9 canopies, and PLFs looked after the rest. You wouldnt likely be aware of that since you weren't jumping back then., but either was your "mentor". Sometimes a ankle might break, but that can happen on 2004 equipment...there are several listed this year across the USA, on the forums of DZ.com The 30 day currency is for the most part, a money grab by greedy DZ owners. They take advantage of people kept on the ground by weather, and they keep many people from taking part in skydiving because of it. Thats "one" of the reasons skydiving is going "downhill". Bill Cole D-41 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #47 September 9, 2004 Bill, I don't know why you think the 30 day currency thing is a big deal. I know people that have shown up, rented gear and jumped after not jumping for a year+ and no one even talked to them about their emergency procedures or anything more then "nice to see you again!" All the currency training that I've seen are more like "Made a jump in the last 30 days? Yep. Good we can skip over the emergency procedures refresher then" If they are still on student status they are going to have to do the next level, levels are priced before hand and I'm yet to see a DZ tack on an extra fee for a level for training. And for those post A licence... if $20 for not jumping in 3 months keeps them from jumping how the hell are they going to afford gear or to jump? Back in the day you had Cessna's, Beech's or the really big DZ's had DC3's. The cost of an Otter is a few times more then the DC3. Half million to million dollar aircraft are becoming the norm for jump operations. You want cheap jump tickets? Fly in an uninsured, poorly maintained Cessna at a renagade DZ. Thats where men are men, and everyone else dies when the plane crashes. 30 years ago an 10 way was a big deal. Now days jumpers with less then 50 jumps can do multipoint 10 ways. Body flight has progressed many times over compared to the skills from the 60's and 70's. Out of my 800 jumps there are probally only 40 I did'nt stand up. My most severe injury was from a round. The "good old days were'nt always so good of days" is the phrase a very experienced jumper told me as they were carting me off the field from that landing. You know whats killing the sport? Nothing. There is a 10x growth over 30 years ago. There are more skydives being done at 3 or 4 DZ's in a year then were done all across the world 30 years ago. Jumpers are jumping more, and there are more jumpers. Nothing at all wrong with that picture. Sure some people leave, but others come along to replace them.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cocheese 0 #48 September 9, 2004 Stands up and claps.Bravo !Can we all just get on a load now ? Maybe this weekend ? or are we all doomed ? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #49 September 10, 2004 Nice job missing every point I made. Despite your inferences otherwise, the post consisted of my opinion, without influence from others. I have only been working at that DZ for a short while in respect to how long I have been skydiving. I came on staff with my own viewpoints, some of them contrary to the mangement, and have stood by my views all along, openly and publicly. The reason you assume that the management of that DZ had an influence on my post is because you're getting the same message from both of us. Take a look at the thread, you're getting the same message from quite a few people. It's not a coincidence, it's beacuse you're wrong. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
