the Saber2 sucks!

[Will_Evo 0]

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Yeauza! Calm down. It is just my opinion! So many that disagreed with me seemed to feel the need to discredit me and attack me personally. I simply stated my progression of downsizing, I never once said I was good in any way. I always check with the instructors at my DZ before downsizing and they were the one's that recommended I buy a 159. They are, I hope confident in my ability to handle it, as am I.

As the replies show, I am not the only one that feels it is in someways an inferior canopy. Throw my opinion out the window as you have, but I'm sure their all just doing something wrong too.

I invite anyone looking at getting a new intermediate canopy to read all the replies and form their own opinion. We all sure know yours. Thanks for your creative criticisms of me, I'm sure I can learn from them and it will make me a better jumper.

So you admit to not being good, bus somehow can formulate such a strong opinion on a canopy to say it sucks? Like I said before, you, me, god if hes real, the entire dropzone population know you are full of it, and for once, I agree "You don't know what you don't know". Like I said before, you have 49 jumps, and supposedly 40 of them were used to experiment on a spectre and or sabre2, this also means that in two jumps(if you started experimenting at jump 8), you sold yourself on the safire2. I mean, listen to yourself, Jump 9!? Youve got to be kidding?! Id be willing to bet you were on student gear still, still learning how to flare and properly enter a landing pattern, not experimenting on a new smaller canopy, and getting finicky about its openings.

Like I said before, I had a problem with very off heading openings on my Spectre when I first bought it(jump 30), and even asked the local instructors what the problem could be, I got the "Body position and packing" speech from every one of them, I am going to go with they must all have telepathy, or they just know what they are talking about. Well here I am 60 jumps later, and an off heading opening is a rare occurrence. Coincidence? Hell no. I learned how to pack, practiced, and figured out where in the packing process, off heading opening can be avoided. Also i did two solos in the beginning, flyinf in the pull position the entire jump, perfecting the pull position, and man am I glad, those 4 way jump withs a break off of 4 grand, dont give you much time to end your track and get stable before pull.

Lastly, your opinion on the Sabre2 means nothing if you never packed it. How can you blame the canopy if you have never tried to fix the problem yourself? packers usually do a tremendous job packing canopies, but they do it fast, and if the canopy is a bit to big for the bag, or container, or is new and slippery, or has worn out lines, etc..(tons of things) off heading openings can happen. Did you even think to have the trim checked? How many jumps were on the canopy? Were your leg straps the same length when you landed every jump? Are you sure you were stable in the air? To many questions that cannot be answered by a 49 jump wonder. Im not to far ahead of you in jump numbers, but for some reason, I can bet way ahead in the common sense department.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[ridestrong 1]

Listen Evo... I really don't care if you believe my progression or not. Feel free to come to my dz and see for yourself. I have safely downsized with the approval of my dz instructors and my own comfort level. Why do you care so much, sorry if you are a bit behind the curve. The fact is I did not have the same opening issues on the Spectre caonopies as I did on the Sabre2 canopies, regardless of packing or body position.

Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the canopy or are numb to the process. It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

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So let me get this straight, you've done 40 jumps roughly on a spectre and or Sabre 2 collectively....so this must mean on jump 9, two jumps after AFF) you started experimenting with new canopies? And not only experimenting, but downsizing twice? Give me a break kid, lets be serious, you didn't start experimenting with different canopies until your A, and even then that only gives you 24 jumps to form an opinion on two canopies and compare them and rule one completely out. Something isn't adding up, so go over your numbers again, and come back with some realistic data.

Here you go Evo a scan of my log book just for you. Jump number 10 on a Sabre2 230. This was my second solo after AFF. My first jump #1 was a tandem.

*SEE ATTACHED PHOTO*

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[billvon 2,396]

> The fact is I did not have the same opening issues on the Spectre
>caonopies as I did on the Sabre2 canopies, regardless of packing or body
>position.

Spectres are far more forgiving than most canopies when it comes to packing. If someone decides "I can pack a Spectre and get a decent opening, therefore my packing is fine" that can be a bad conclusion.

>Also, if it takes you even more than 10 rides on two different canopies
>to tell the differences and make a preference then you are not flying the
>canopy or are numb to the process.

Or are a canopy pilot who can do more than pull toggles and flare. It takes a long time to really understand a canopy. (Not to say you can't make a few jumps and decide which ones you like better - but the people who are _really_ flying the canopy are the ones who will take their time and learn the differences.)

[ridestrong 1]

Here is another scan of my log book. Jump #21 on a Spectre 210... Jump #22 on a Spectre 190.

*SEE ATTACHED PHOTO*

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[AggieDave 6]

If the two of you make it to 1000 jumps in the sport, I hope you remember this thread. You'll be really embarrassed, but it will help temper both of your responses when trying to help low time jumpers who refuse to listen.

Out of curiosity, have either of you received any structured canopy coaching? Have either of you looked into it? Check the sticky in the Canopy Control forum for contact information for a regional canopy mentor.

Good luck to both of you.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[mjosparky 3]

I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the scan of your log book. One thing it does show is that you have made 39 jumps in 5 months. That is not enough jumps to be current on any canopy much less a 150.

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It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.

It is so hard to believe because most of the people talking to you have been there and done that. They know what it takes to understand the flight characteristics of different canopies. And they also know that you lack the hang time to know WTF you are talking about.

Can I be on you ash dive.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[champu 1]

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Hard opening on a Sabre2? Never heard that from anyone before. I get 700-800ft with just pushing the nose back, I remember when I first got my Sabre2 and I was rolling the nose, 1000ft.

Sorry... every time I see the term "1000 ft snivel/opening" tossed around casually I kinda furl my eyebrow a little. This is a 1000 ft snivel/opening (note the slight jolt about a half a second into the video, that's the bag hitting the end of the lines. I gave it a couple seconds before I even look up the first time.)

After a couple seconds of the that nonsense you're not actually being slowed down anymore. Canopies aren't supposed to do that.

[ridestrong 1]

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I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the scan of your log book. One thing it does show is that you have made 39 jumps in 5 months. That is not enough jumps to be current on any canopy much less a 150.

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It doesn't take a genius to notice the diferences in handling between two canopies. Don't know why it is so hard for you to believe.

It is so hard to believe because most of the people talking to you have been there and done that. They know what it takes to understand the flight characteristics of different canopies. And they also know that you lack the hang time to know WTF you are talking about.

Can I be on you ash dive.

Sparky

Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

My log book scans were to show the data that Evo asked for. I don't claim to be a jumping machine. Nor do I claim to be a canopy expert. I just think the Sabre2 has shitty openings. And since you seem to be in denial please refer to posts: 10, 13, 15, 16, 17, 18,...... and so on. Wow, other people actually had similar experiences in one way or another.

Sparky's jump history: 2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers, see your quote above.

Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

PS- you can be on my ash dive if they let you out of the nursing home...

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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Not sure what your problem with me is...

I'm going to guess that it has something to do with your attitude, which you have despite your enormous lack of knowledge.

But than you bring up this -

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2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers,

- and I've becomed convinced that the problem is that Sparky has an uncanny ability to identify a douchebag.

Without ever meeting you, I can guarantee that Sparky has been jumping longer than you have been alive. It might be hard for you to believe, but the was a world before you came into it.

You have to be able to easily understand that there is a difference between having 40 jumps total in six months, and making 40 jumps every six months for 33 years. You just have to, or you may be legally retarded.

[dorbie 0]

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Sparky's jump history: 2700 jumps in 33 yrs = 80 jumps a year avg, or 40 jumps every 6 months... Hmmmmmm... what was it that you criticized me on with my numbers, see your quote above.

Simply astonishing.

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Now that I just got my own gear and don't have to pay for rentals I will average 4-6 jumps per week, weather permitting.

Don't count your chickens before they hatch. There's a big difference between surviving decades in skydiving and expecting to. The decisions you make on the ground are a part of that.

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PS- you can be on my ash dive if they let you out of the nursing home...

Alas the odds and attitude suggest he's not going to be in a nursing home when you bounce.

These guy's are not attacking you personally (well maybe now after your latest assinine post it'll get 'colorful') they're trying to help you. Step back and recognize that.

Best of luck.

[ridestrong 1]

Please show me one post in this thread where I talk myself up or think I'm the shit. I don't think I've done anything impressive. I'm likely the average skilled skydiver at this stage.

I think I have managed to stay relatively mature given some of the personal attacks on me in this thread.

I believe in safety first, listening to my dz instructors, and having fun.

I have found in life that those who feel the need to belittle others often have greater insecurities within themselves.

I'm really just going to have to ignore any further personal attacks on me as they are without merit and immature.

This has seemed to turn into the "haters" on Josh thread. Maybe I will start that as a new thread so we can keep this one about how the Sabre2 sucks or doesn't suck. It will keep the simple minded people on track with hating me.

Anyone new to this thread please read from the beginning.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[dorbie 0]

The issue is not you bumming yourself up, it's what is implied in the statements you make.

I don't think your early canopy 'experimentation' was at all incredible, most people do something like that during their early jumps once they learn to flare and when they're trying to pick a first canopy. It's a silly distraction.

However what you think you've learned from this is subject to ridicule when you make definitive statements. Most students are asking for advice on canopies, not giving it.

Maybe you're staying safe, making statements like that around here just off student status is like a red flag to a bull and conjures up images of others who have gone before, perhaps with more radical downsizing some not, and who have hurt themselves after ignoring advice.

[ridestrong 1]

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However what you think you've learned from this is subject to ridicule when you make definitive statements. Most students are asking for advice on canopies, not giving it.

I gave only my opinion, which I realize alone is worthless. The ONLY advice I gave was in post #29 when I said. "I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular."

I have read some good packing tips from this thread, and others opinions on the Sabre2, Spectre and other canopies. Can we please keep it about that.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[danielcroft 2]

This thread is great!

[skinnay 0]

Note to self: stay the fuck away from MileHi.

[DSE 3]

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- and I've becomed convinced that the problem is that Sparky has an uncanny ability to identify a douchebag.

Sparky is pretty astute, no doubt. Following his advice served me well in the early days....
OP; I've got a Sabre 2 that has never given me issues, ever. Openings are great, even with 10lbs of gear on my head and opening in a full track with lots of nylon between my arms and legs.

Although all canopies seem to have issues of one kind or another, most of the complaints like this relate to the jumper, not the canopy. I had one that just vexed me. I finally had someone shoot video of a deployment. Figured it out in one, it was all me.

[ghost47 18]

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The ONLY advice I gave was in post #29 when I said. "I hope any nubies such as myself will read all the replies and if their considering buying a new canopy will at least try a couple different ones before simply ordering a Saber2 because their popular."

There was also post 5 . . .

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Please people ride some other canopies first, guarantee you will find something you like better than the Saber2.

In any case, I think all the salient points have been made. Me personally, I think the more disturbing thing is not your opinion of Sabre2s (which, as you mention, many people apparently share), it's your wingloading in your environmental conditions at your jump numbers. But if your instructors and the DZO and S&TA have signed off on it, then good luck with it, and I hope it all goes well.

[ridestrong 1]

Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[skinnay 0]

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Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

Doesn't the SIM recommend a D license for 150's regardless of wingloading? Do you want them to write the rule with your blood?

[ridestrong 1]

The reason why I started this thread was because of the number of new jumpers at my dz straight off AFF talking about how they are going to get a Sabre2.

I would like to know if unbiased first canopy buyers would be 'more' or 'less' likely to buy a Sabre2 after reading all the replies in this post.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ridestrong 1]

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Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

Doesn't the SIM recommend a D license for 150's regardless of wingloading? Do you want them to write the rule with your blood?

To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.

http://www.4xtremetime.com/en/files/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[ghost47 18]

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To jump a 150 The USPA downsizing chart recommends a minimum of 40 jumps for the lowest wing loading on the chart.
http://www.4xtremetime.com/...les/USPADOWNSIZE.pdf

This is Brian Germain's downsizing chart, I believe (though a slightly different version than the one he currently has up).

You weigh 165. Your exit weight is around 187. You have 40 jumps. According to the chart you should be jumping a 210, or a 182 at most.

THEN, the chart says: "Increase surface area one size (15 - 20 sq ft) for each increment of 2500 feet of altitude." Mile-Hi is about 5000 feet above sea level. So that means add 30 - 40 sq ft.

Meaning, according to the chart, you should be jumping, a 240 to 250, or, at most, a 210 to 220. You are, instead, jumping a 159. Which, according to the chart, does not become potentially appropriate until around 340 jumps.

You are free to ignore the chart, and, as I said, if your instructors and DZO and S&TA have signed off on your choice of canopy size, then I hope all goes well.

One other thing -- as has been mentioned in many other threads, the question is not whether you can safely land a 159 on a straight approach into the wind. The question is whether you can safely land it when the wind shifts and suddenly you're going downwind, or the spot is off and you have only a small space to put the canopy down, or the myriad scenarios that will occur as you continue jumping. It is for those situations that people recommend more conservative canopies.

[dorbie 0]

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Maybe there should be requirements regulated by the USPA or other entity before downsizing for beginners. Until one gets their 'C' license etc... May not be a bad idea.

LOL why regulate when the advice is available from experts and you have the freedom to make the right informed choice? Your statement is a bit like a guy playing Russian roulette and just before he pulls the trigger saying maybe there should be a law against this to stop me, as if it's someone else's responsibility. Sorry mate, no rules are required and your statement indicates you're going into this eyes wide open.

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Be sure to factor in density altitude.

That's a set of rules for you drawn up by some of the best, feel free to apply them to your own ass if you really want rules.

It always seemed a bit on the conservative side to me but it is the best advice out there with a lot of support.

This thread keeps on giving.

[mjosparky 3]

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Not sure what your problem with me is... you seem REALLY offended by my post. Had some problems with your Sabre2 maybe? Not giving you any love?

I am way too old to get offended by something on the net. But I am tired of bagging and tagging hot shot young jumpers who get all puffed up about their crazy skills and haven’t seen the ball since kick off.
I’ll make you a deal, in 5 years if you are still alive, still in the sport and not waking with a limp, I will get down on my knees and apologize for hurting you sensitivities. My name is Michael Owens; you pick the time and place.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals