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mgoldade

Para-Concepts / Icarus SCREW Skydiver

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At the end of the 2008 year I purchased a used Icarus Safire 119 over Dropzone.com. Prior to purchase I requested photos and more info on the canopy. I was informed by the seller that the canopy needed a new lineset asap. The photos proved that. We agreed upon a price and the canopy was shipped to me (In Canada). The canopy sat in the box and just prior to the beginning of the season I sent it to Para-Concepts in Chicago. The initial dealings were with Amber at Para-Concepts and we spoke on the phone. I had paid for and requested a canopy inspection / lineset with installation. Once they received the main, Amber informed me that there were additional fees for the customs brokering (or something like that). I agreed to split the costs with them, even though it never made any sense that there would be any additional fees on a main being shipped for repair. They were quite prompt is completing this task and getting the main back to me. But this is where the real problems started...
I hooked the main up and jumped it and on every jump there was an immediate L/H turn on opening. I would release the brakes and it still turned left. I then had another jumper / rigger check out the main an jump it. He confirmed what I wasa experiencing and suggested I send it back to Para-Concepts. I did the following day (as well as phones Amber to let her know what was happening). The main arrived at Para-Concepts and was not looked at for quite a while as the master rigger (Kirk Smith) was away. Once he finally returned it still took an extremely long time to get any answers. Finally I got Kirk on the phone and explained everything that I have experienced to that point. He told me that it was a manufacturers defect, that he was meeting with the owner of Icarus that day and would bring it up with him.
The final outcome was that Kirk smith did absolutely nothing for me. The canopy was deemed a manufacturers defect, Kirk came back and said that the owner of Icarus said the canopy was old and he would do nothing for me either. Finally the Manager of Para-Concepts contacted me and told me that all they would do is ship back the main. I mentioned that they were supposed to do an inspection (as that is what I initially paid for with the lineset), but was told that they don't check the trim of the main in the inspection process. I also asked them if I could get them to find out why the canopy wasa flying that way and all they would do is check the trim on the lineset I paid for. I had offered to pay them to fix the problem and they wouldn't. Kirk's initial suggestion was to keep jumping it and make adjustments to the lines to trim the canopy out. The final suggestion from all of them at Para-Concepts was to retire the main completely.
So I asked for some kind of consideration from them in the regards of a discount on a new main purchase, or a refund on the lineset. I waas told that they could do no such thing at all. All they would do is send back my main that they have kept in their shop for almost 2 months total time.
So here I am with a main that is not jumpable, I have paid shipping to Chicago twice with UPS (insured and packaged properly), paid for some BS brokerage fee from the first time I shipped it to them (funny, there was no such brokerage fee the 2nd time I shipped it and it was shipped the same way), paid for an inspection that wasa obviously not done right the first time, and paid for a lineset that is now useless. But they were nice enough to include a couple Icarus stickers when they shipped it back!?!?!? WTF???
I have since taken the time to hang the main up and inspect the lines myself (I am also a rigger) and found some issues. Obviously they never even looked at the main when I sent it back the 2nd time...
I also have had several other Riggers & Master Riggers look at it, and they have confirmed with certainty that the main is a manufacturer defect, and that what they found was done on a short inspection that took less than an hour or so (I gladly would have paid Kirk for an hours labour and made that clear).
"There is he stab that is out a little. Lower control lines are out but the biggest thing is one rib
is out by an inch and another one is out by 1/4 - 1/3 inch" (one riggers comments)
So the final outcome...
Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts screwed a skydiver for the almighty buck! Icarus (according to Kirk) does not support their product at all once you own it.
I am out a lot of $$ and had to go buy a new main. This time I went back to PD and will never buy another Icarus product again.
I have heard several times where people with PD mains have had issues and PD has always gone to bat and taken care of the customer. Obviously Icarus and Para-Concepts do not care about the customer, they just want your $$.
I still feel that Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts should at least re-imburse me the funds paid to them due to the COMPLETE lack of customer service, the fact that they never completed the job properly the first time and Kirk should have his rigging ticket pulled for being so incompetent!
2K Composites Dealer
TonySuits Dealer
Larsen & Brusgaard Dealer
CSPA C, Coach 1, Rigger A, Instructor A, Tandem Videographer / Photographer, EJR

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I think you're way off base here. You bought a used main that was used enough to need a new lineset, so much so that you did not test jump the main before buying it. This is nobodies fault but your own.

You sent to a loft for service, to include an inspection. The last time I checked, the standard inspection at a loft includes the lines, and line trim, the condition of the fabric, and checking all the seams and stiching.

Once a canopy has been put into service, and enough jumps have been put on it to wear out a lineset, the assumption is that the canopy itself is assembled correctly, and there would be no need to measure each panel or the location of the seams. I cannot say for sure, but I would venture that even PD, the gold standard in customer service, does not include those items on a standard inspection before a reline. They are simply looking at the condition of the already assembled canopy, just like Para-Concepts did for you.

Beyond that, if they correctly installed the line set you paid for, and you did not find any damage to the fabric or seams, Para-Concepts did the job that you asked them to do, and that you paid them to do.

They have no responsibility to you beyond that, and to expect them to reimburse you for any of your costs is absurd.

You're barking up the wrong tree, and the worst part about it is that your barking up it on DZ.com. All it would have taken was a simple search reagrding Icarus canopies, and you would have seen that many jumpers have horror stories regarding the lack of customer service from the factory.

You could have also searched for 'buying used canopies' and read that a test jump is a GREAT idea before buying any used canopy.

Instead you bought a used canopy with a worn out line set, no test jump, no internet research, and now because the thing was built wrong many years ago in another country, you want Para-Conpects to take a hit on a reline and inspection they succesfully completed? Get real.

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Ever try bringing a car back to the dealer and complain 10 years after it's out of warrantee that the thing is burning oil?

I'm working in the autmotive sector and sometimes I can't believe the level of service skydivers enjoy. Hey, my car didn't start on the first try yesterday... No problem sir, here is a brand new one!

If the canopy were new then sure I'd expect some level of support, but not well into it's life.

-Michael

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The biggest issues with me are the facts that he kept it as long as he did the 2nd time around and never really did anything. I had offered to pay to have him re-inspect and to have him fix any problems. He at one point told me that he never had the time to find the problem, and that I should just test jump it and make adjustments to the lineset to trim it out.
If this was a PD Canopy, they would have at least offered me a discount on a new main. Icarus, not so...
2K Composites Dealer
TonySuits Dealer
Larsen & Brusgaard Dealer
CSPA C, Coach 1, Rigger A, Instructor A, Tandem Videographer / Photographer, EJR

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Without getting into a full determination of who is at fault for what, there are some interesting issues here:

-- To what extent does a dealer/distributor/representative represent the manufacturer?

One can get into the argument, "Your rigging shop represents the manufacturer. You represent the company, so their screw up is your screw up. So you fix it!"
versus
"No, we just supplied the line set, we didn't build it, we didn't even sell it to you, and aren't responsible if it was built wrong. We do sell new products from that company though."

-- What does a skydiver expect in an inspection of a main?

It would be easy for a rigger to miss a difference of an inch here or there in a rib profile or something like that. Normally in main inspection we as riggers are be looking for tears and that sort of thing. Only if we knew it wasn't flying right would we start checking dimensions.

So there could easily be a misunderstanding between a rigger and skydiver as to what an "inspection" means.

--There can be all sorts of arguments about warranties and expectations, but this isn't as if the car is burning oil after 10 years of wear and tear. It came out of the factory with a cracked crankcase. Then you can argue whether the first or second owner has to notice within X months before the manufacturer is off the hook.

-- It sounds like the line set was correct and was installed correctly. You still have a perfect lineset, just not on a very good canopy.

-- Even the dealer (or whatever Kirk technically is) said Icarus doesn't support the product very well...

-- It sounds like there was some miscommunication or issue about whether Para-Concepts could rework the canopy itself, with the customer paying.

-- It sounds like it was the previous owner who screwed the current owner over, if a problem was not disclosed. Still, the current owner didn't test jump it before accepting it. (Which can be a problem with winter and all.)

-- UPS is notorious among Canadians shipping to the USA, because of high brokerage fees often not included in the price. I don't recall details, and don't know why you got dinged once but not the other time.


P.S. - Mgoldade -- this sounds like the Safire 119 that J.W. told me about...

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every single Icarus canopies that i jumped was awesome from opening to landing.

and also crossfire lineset that i got thru para-concepts were delivered right on time and worked well.

so there for previous owner of safire 119 screwed YOU not Icarus nor Para concepts..

and i don't think PD will offer you discount on new main if you bought stilleto that was made in 1990 off the dz.com
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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-- To what extent does a dealer/distributor/representative represent the manufacturer?

One can get into the argument, "Your rigging shop represents the manufacturer. You represent the company, so their screw up is your screw up. So you fix it!"
versus
"No, we just supplied the line set, we didn't build it, we didn't even sell it to you, and aren't responsible if it was built wrong. We do sell new products from that company though."



Found this on the Para Concepts website.

Quote

Para Concepts is the official Icarus US Support Center, providing Linesets & Relines, Sliders, Repairs, and Demos.


----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts screwed a skydiver for the almighty buck! Icarus (according to Kirk) does not support their product at all once you own it.



I think you lost any sympathy right about here.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

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Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts screwed a skydiver for the almighty buck! Icarus (according to Kirk) does not support their product at all once you own it.



I think you lost any sympathy right about here.




I've only ever heard good things about Kirk, and Para-Concepts, but I have heard and experienced countless horror stories about Icarus (CIMSA / Spain).

If I wanted any Icarus design, I'd go straight to the source, the original designer Jyro at NZ Aerosports. http://www.nzaerosports.com/
----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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everybody knows that when you re-line a canopy the new lines will cause the canopy to turn left, off course that is only in the Northern hemisphere, in the Southern hemisphere they turn right

that is why the previous owner sold it to you, they didn't want to re-line it have have it all of a sudden starting turning left

your beef is with the seller and with yourself B|

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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I sent in a pretty old stiletto to PD three years ago for a customer because even after a putting on a new lineset it was behaving funny. PD couldn't get it to perform to their standards (during test jumps) and offered my customer a free Katana they had in stock. He of course took the deal!
Mass Defiance 4-wayFS website


sticks!

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>Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts screwed a skydiver for the almighty buck!

?? From your story, the previous seller "screwed you over." (Well, actually, you sorta screwed yourself by buying a used canopy and not testing it first.)

Anyone who agrees to reline a canopy is responsible for doing that job right. They are not responsible for fixing any existing problems with the canopy. If your beef was "the reline was done poorly" then you'd have a valid argument, and be entitled for a repair or refund. If your beef is that "I gave them a crap canopy and they didn't fix it for free or give me a new one" then you'll get no sympathy from me.

>The final outcome was that Kirk smith did absolutely nothing for me.

Other than exactly what you asked him to do when you sent the canopy in.

>I have heard several times where people with PD mains have had issues and
>PD has always gone to bat and taken care of the customer.

I've had both a PD190 and a Sabre 150 blow seams out. When I sent them off to PD, they said the canopies were old and worn, and that's why they blew out. They offered to fix them (for a fee.)

Oddly, I did not bitch and moan, or post diatribes about how PD screwed me over. I realized I had gotten a reasonable life out of both canopies, and paid to have one fixed. The other is now used for sewing practice.

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I sent in a pretty old stiletto to PD three years ago for a customer because even after a putting on a new lineset it was behaving funny. PD couldn't get it to perform to their standards (during test jumps) and offered my customer a free Katana they had in stock. He of course took the deal!


This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have heard many many stories about PD doing this. I have also heard many stories of Icarus doing the same thing to others that they did to me (nothing).
I feel I need to clarify the issue with Kirk at Para-Concepts. The part that really upset me and caused me to rant about him / them is the fact that I sent it back to them after discovering the issue. When they received it we were now at the beginning of the jump season and I am down a main canopy! Then they never kept me in the loop at all and left it on a shelf. When I offered money to have them find the problem and fix it, they (Kirk) said they would look at it, then they told me they would talk to Icarus, then they still had the canopy for an extended period of time. All the while, he nevver actually did anything, and this is the point of contention. He never did actually inspect it further when it was sent down the 2nd time. If he did, he would have noticed some differences in the control lines, he would have noticed the differences in the ribs, he would have noticed the stab. BUT, he just told me it was a manufacturers defect and we agreed it should be decertified. But he never at any point gave me any info as to what was causing the turn. He was probably too busy with relines that generate good money for little work and didn't want to take on a job of trying to find the cause of my problem.

Their website clearly states:
"Para Concepts provides professional and complete rigging services for modern skydiving equipment. We have invested in the specialized equipment and the advanced training for our rigging staff so that we can repair or modify your equipment to factory standards. We can do just about anything, including:
•Main Canopy Maintenance
◦Relines
◦Patches
◦Trim Analysis "

So, I feel this would fall under Trim Analysis. Would that not be correct?
But they were unwilling to perform that for me. Instead they would just rather take my money, send back the main and be done with me. They had a great opportunity to gain a lifelong customer by handling this the right way, instead they kept my main in their shop for WEEKS and did absolutely nothing.
How would you feel as a skydiver having your main that you just bought and sent for a reline and only put 6-7 jumps on, having it sit in a different country at a manufacturer authorized repair center and they do nothing at all to it. At what point do we finally hold the "Authorized Repair Center" accountable for poor customer service?
If you took your car in for an oil change and it came back to you with a defective (manufacturer defect) Power Control Module (the main computer that controls the car), you would want them to fix the defect. And the dealer (Authorized Repair Center) would do that. I know because this happened with a Dodge I owned. Now if they took it in to fix the PCM and kept it for over a month and never did anything and told you to take it back, how would you react? Would you be upset? Would you expect them to resolve the problem? You are damn rights you would.
And it's the same with a main canopy that is defective.
The garage took my car and fixed it right way at no cost with no questions. They provided me a courtesy car and never batted an eye. Oh, and it was a car I bought used as well.
So, if Kirk wants to post "Para Concepts has been contracted by Icarus Canopies to act as the Icarus Canopies Chicago Support Center." on their website, then they should be willing to act as such. It is no longer just a rigging loft, it is an authorized service center for the manufacturer.
2K Composites Dealer
TonySuits Dealer
Larsen & Brusgaard Dealer
CSPA C, Coach 1, Rigger A, Instructor A, Tandem Videographer / Photographer, EJR

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>Kirk Smith and Para-Concepts screwed a skydiver for the almighty buck!

?? From your story, the previous seller "screwed you over." (Well, actually, you sorta screwed yourself by buying a used canopy and not testing it first.)

Anyone who agrees to reline a canopy is responsible for doing that job right. They are not responsible for fixing any existing problems with the canopy. If your beef was "the reline was done poorly" then you'd have a valid argument, and be entitled for a repair or refund. If your beef is that "I gave them a crap canopy and they didn't fix it for free or give me a new one" then you'll get no sympathy from me.

>The final outcome was that Kirk smith did absolutely nothing for me.

Other than exactly what you asked him to do when you sent the canopy in.

>I have heard several times where people with PD mains have had issues and
>PD has always gone to bat and taken care of the customer.

I've had both a PD190 and a Sabre 150 blow seams out. When I sent them off to PD, they said the canopies were old and worn, and that's why they blew out. They offered to fix them (for a fee.)

Oddly, I did not bitch and moan, or post diatribes about how PD screwed me over. I realized I had gotten a reasonable life out of both canopies, and paid to have one fixed. The other is now used for sewing practice.



I do have to agree woth some of your post. I was a fool for buying a canopy without a test jump. The seller (Alex Chong) definately screwed me on the sale of this canopy.
And if I had received the service I requested the 2nd time I shipped my canopy to Para-Concepts, it would not have been as much of an issue. But I sent it to them and they held onto it forever. They never actually checked the main the 2nd time to find the problem even though I made it clear I would pay for them to find & resolve the problem with the main. So, no, the level of service from them absolutely sucked the 2nd time around.
I guess my whole point of this thread is to let other skydivers know about the level of service I received from them and Icarus (which will hopefully influence their decisions as to who to send work to), and to get feedback and hear others opinions about this situation. I know not everyone will see my point, and some people will have differing opinions of what constitutes an acceptable level of customer service. But to me, the customer is the one that allows a company to function, and the company needs to cater (within reason) to the needs of the consumer.
The actions of Kirk Smith and his staff the 2nd time I sent the main to them is the issue with Para-Concepts. If you look up at the initial post, I was quick to point out how quickly they took care of getting the reline done and getting my main back to me the 1st time. The real issue with them is how I was handled / treated the 2nd time I sent it back to them.
As for Icarus as a company, I will NEVER purchase another Icarus main again. I promptly went out and bought a PD Katana immediately after this incident and will never leave PD again!
2K Composites Dealer
TonySuits Dealer
Larsen & Brusgaard Dealer
CSPA C, Coach 1, Rigger A, Instructor A, Tandem Videographer / Photographer, EJR

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I have a buddy who bought a PD Spectre 1 1/2 years ago. It's had a slow built in turn.

He had a local rigger look at it several times but they couldn't get it figured out. He sent to PD and they re-trimmed it.

It still had the turn just not as bad. He dealt with it for a while until he could get to the Couch Freak boogie with the PD rep.

After the rep jumped it he made a call to PD and they told him to tell my buddy that they would rebuild it.

They also told him if he wanted any other parachute that they would give it to him for no upcharge.

He's a conservative jumper so he had them build him a Pulse.

He was in Florida a few weeks ago for a family vacation so he stopped in to PD to check out the factory and to say thanks to the woman with whom he's been dealing.

She said the canopy got done a bit sooner than they expected. He had his rig with him so they put it on his risers and packed it for him.

He is a very happy customer.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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say i buy a canopy and it has a bad turn.. its goes back to the factory and they return it with the turn corrected... they didnt say how they corrected it...now i sell the canopy and the buyer has it relined before he jumps it... now it has a turn... would that be a seller screwing someone? they probally trimmed it out... rather then to rebuild it..

i had a several year old reserve... had a bad turn, sent back to the factory, got it back... later after i sold it, a rigger refused to pack it cause the one side of the canopy lines were way shorter then the other side... the person i sold the rig to was one of my friends and was aware of the situation.... this was in the mid 90's.... tony

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Tony,
I personally think that selling a main with the knowledge of a built-in turn is just wrong. I have handed this main over to a close personal friend who knows more about canopies than most. He is already pulling the canopy apart.
The thought of turning around and selling this main to another skydiver never even came to mind, and I have nothing positive to say about the seller I purchased it from either. Selling equipment with built-in turns is not only wrong, but it could prove to be dangerous to the buyer.
2K Composites Dealer
TonySuits Dealer
Larsen & Brusgaard Dealer
CSPA C, Coach 1, Rigger A, Instructor A, Tandem Videographer / Photographer, EJR

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i agree but it seemed like people were making the seller seem bad, i was just showing a case where he may have not known it....

im going to sell my spectre, it had a turn when new, went back...i think they did a complete reline, cause when i first jumped it, it was slow to turn, but when it came back it was alot faster.. i have put 500 jumps on it... great canopy... but since this thread i will get a reline, test jump it then sell it....tony

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>If you took your car in for an oil change and it came back to you with
>a defective (manufacturer defect) Power Control Module (the main
>computer that controls the car), you would want them to fix the defect.

Right. But that's not what happened here.

The equivalent here is that you bought a car, towed it to the dealer's without driving it to get the oil changed, then got it back and noticed that the car pulled really hard to the right. Would it be the dealer's responsibility to fix it? I don't think so.

Now, you might luck out, and find that there was a mandatory recall on the front struts, and that that included an alignment, new CV boots etc. But that would be a lucky break, not an expected outcome.

>So, I feel this would fall under Trim Analysis. Would that not be
>correct?

Trim analysis means making sure the lines are within trim. Were they? You can check that yourself.

>They never actually checked the main the 2nd time to find the problem
>even though I made it clear I would pay for them to find & resolve the
>problem with the main.

Usually you can't. All they can do is inspect the canopy and see if there are any obvious defects, check line lengths, do a pull test etc. If there's nothing wrong there, the only other thing they can try is start jumping it and modifying things like line length, but then you have a guaranteed out-of-trim canopy that's basically an experimental design.

It's not like a car where you re-align the front end and it stops turning.

>As for Icarus as a company, I will NEVER purchase another Icarus main again.

So far I've had a Safire 1 129, a Crossfire 1 99 and a Crossfire 2 109. All have been excellent canopies, and I've had no problems with the dealers I've used (Gravity Gear, Sq1.) Sorry you had trouble with someone taking a long time, but it sounds more like a communication/work bottleneck issue than anything else.

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Seems to me you kept asking for inspections and line trim checks which are generally performed on the ground. Sounds like what you really wanted was someone, with more experience and knowledge to test jump the canopy and either confirm your findings or find something else. THAT is what you should have asked for. Test jumps are a different animal then simply asking for a line trim check, an no, test jumps are not part of an inspection. Unfortunately, YOU SCREWED YOURSELF by not jumping the canopy before you paid for it. I would be focussing my energies on obtaining a refund from the man who sold you the canopy. As for the service center, I agree that they should have done more to keep you informed and should have kept in closer communication, but based on what you posted, they performed the services you asked for.

Coming soon to a bowl of Wheaties near you!!

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I don't have a lot of time to read or post on here so much anymore but I feel like I need to add to this thread after reading all the posts. I currently own the canopy in question. I have not had a chance to test jump the canopy yet but I have done an inspection of it and a line trim check.

Quite frankly, I don't like the work that was done on the canopy. While most of the work was done in accordance to the specs from the manufacturer there was a few things that was out. The control lines were about 1.5 inches different and one of the stabilizers was sewn wrong. So there is a little more than a communications bottleneck here. The work is easily fixed if you have the means to do it and actually check the canopy. I personally don't believe it was done because these things should have been caught if it were. I would never build and install a line set for a customer and give them something like that back.

In regards to the ribs being out of whack. This is something that I don't expect everyone to catch cause it comes done to how observant you are. It was sent back to be looked at and when you pack it if you can't tell that one of the ribs is way out then you are either a sloppy packer, not observant or both. I agree that checking the whole canopy is out of line for an inspection but some of this was very sloppy and not something that I would expect from any professional.

I am not going to touch a lot on the test jumping aspect cause I find most people don't know what they are talking about. I have done over 500 test jumps on different canopies and a test jump wouldn't solve the problem with the canopy and anyone that would just go an jump a canopy without giving it a once over, has either never been a test jumper for very long or has got really lucky with their test jumps. I have had way too many things happen to me to jump something without getting a little info first.

I personally would be pissed if the originally seller knew that there was a issue with the canopy but I would also be pissed by the people not doing the reline properly in the first place. This is just my opinion, you guys can feel whichever way you want to but I think all are to blame to some level.

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Given the age of the canopy I don't think you were screwed, even the original jumper apparently jumped it without concern and may have been oblivious. An inspection isn't going to catch everything, they're obviously going to check a used main for porosity, wear and trim.

Icarus could and should have at least offered you a dealer's price on a new main, but you weren't screwed.

I am impressed with the story about PD posted by another here. That's nice customer service and I'll remember it the next time I buy a canopy.

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I had an new Safire 2 with a build in turn. My rigger test jumped it, and found the same.
When we informed Icarus, i got a brand new stock canopy, until they test jumped mine.
1 month later i got a message that they found nothing, but i could keep the stock canopy anyway!

I call that customer service!

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