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eightate8at8

From a Sabre 150 to Stiletto 150..

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I know I'm probably wasting my time typing this, but I will anyway. I have over 300 jumps, I'm a coach and instructor and JUST downsized to a Sabre 150. And yes, it's at the same wingloading you are.
I downsize slow and encourage to my students to do the same.
One of the reasons is because my dz has a small landing area. The landing area is a small patch beside the end of the runway.
I can put money on the fact that you won't be able to safely land there, yet we have students do it all the time, mainly because they learn how to fly large canopies before downsizing.
Yea, maybe you've gotten lucky so far but what's going to happen when someone cuts you off 50 ft above the ground? More than likely you'll break something trying to avoid them. If you jump something larger, let's say a 190 at minimum, you probably won't break yourself.
Or lets say you have a shitty spot and can't make it back to the dz and the best place to land is a small backyard. Will you be able to safely land there? Will you be able to safely land crosswind or downwind if need be?
Questions like these are what you need to ask yourself.
PS. Can I join the bounce bingo game? ;)

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It's not so much your canopy choice that is worrying people now (although that's still a concern...) it's the attitude you're showing and how it carries over to all aspects of the sport that's the major worry.

It's not just canopies that kill you. This attitude of jumping at stuff before you're ready because you don't understand or aren't willing to progress safely or because you believe in your own superiority will lead you to kill yourself equally well doing wingsuits before you're ready, VRW, big ways, BASE - whatever floats your boat.


When people are talking about Bounce Bingo in relation to you, it's pretty much a final sanity check. You might want to search for what the term means and when it's used...


I'm done here. I hope you make it, honestly.
If not, at the very least this thread will be used in the same way Ted Nelson's is... to try and educate future newbies who think they're above the curve.

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>But as a fact I know I am more into this sport than alotttt others. . .
>just starting that I am more knowledgeable.

It took me to around 500 jumps to realize I didn't know jack shit about skydiving. It takes different people different amounts of time to learn that.

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You say you can handle your present canopy perfectly.

Could you land say for the next 200jumps, Center of the pit.

As i stated earlier my first canopy off student status was a CoeD 170, F111 [man, i would have killed for something made out of Zero P] ].;)
I kept this canopy for approx 200jumps quickly learning that landing the peas was the better option when finally my CCI allowed me to jump my chute shop ZP150.:)You really don't know how lucky you are. i learned to swoop on pretty much the very same canopy as you are jumping now, waiting until i had acquired the necessary skills to jump what i jump now and will wait until i have "ragged" that thing out before i consider another canopy.

Hp canopy flight isn't about landing the canopy, it's about flying it in all permitted conditions and then being able to land it within a pre-determined area or lane safely and you wont be able to do that 100% of the time unless you really know how to fly a canopy.

What ever your future choices please practice the skill checklist first don,t just understand the checklist, actively practice it starting with consistent canopy accuracy and say riser control this will go along way to ultimately teaching you to fly/pilot a canopy.

Find a mentor and Good Luck.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

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Ok 8... I am joining in the fun.

I don't expect you to get what we are all saying. I think it is obvious you won't.

You are so opposed to a 170 (the "safer") canopy in the opinions of people here with thousands of jumps, instructors and riggers - because you "can handle" a 150 just fine. I hope you can in the not so perfect conditions.

I weigh approx 145 pounds and jump a Pilot 168. I have over 500 jumps and just about 140 on the Pilot. Before that I was jumping a Triathlon 220 (I had jumped a Sabre 2 190 for about 20 jumps before purchasing the Pilot) that I had since being off student status. And I have to tell you. I really enjoyed that canopy and love the hell out of this Pilot.

Can you give us any valid reasons why at your level you are opposed to jumping a 170 square foot canopy until you really begin to perfect your canopy piloting skills?
Kim Mills
USPA D21696
Tandem I, AFF I and Static Line I

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I saw a line twist go bad really really fast on a moderately loaded Stilletto. It started small and the jumper wasted some time trying to kick it out as it spun up tighter. He ended up cutting away but he was pretty low by then. The same line twist on my Triathlon would be no big deal, easily kicked out.

Stilletos are fine canopies but they are high performance airfoils and can get you in trouble fast. I like to fly a canopy that can't bite so hard. Call me conservative or even chicken, but I still have intact bones where many have titanium plates and screws.

Good luck and fly safe.

377
2018 marks half a century as a skydiver. Trained by the late Perry Stevens D-51 in 1968.

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The first big step I made in material canopy progression I downsized. You are not talking about downsizing but the progression you are hungry for, by the sounds of it, was similar to where I was at, then.

I started 10 years ago, so the science, the understanding of canopies wasn't at it's current level and access to the information was very limited. You are lucky in that respect and you show responsibility in seeking more information.

No matter what the other threads say, ignorance kills more than arrogance. And it's not the same thing.

So on selling me my new "killer" canopy the guy said to me one piece of advice that I hope may make sense to you, as it did me.

He said, simply, 'no turns below 1000ft for the next 50 jumps'. I thought it was crap advice at the time but it sunk in and it has wisdom in it. Lining your canopy up at the exact ideal spot, given winds, tempratures and off-landings for a 1000ft straight-in is really difficult. It taught me a lot at a potentially dangerous time. I got to learn the canopy and land it safely.

Now I can put it anywhere, fly it anyhow, I have filmed CREW to competition level with it, I have even done crew on said same canopy. I know every bit of it.

But when I progress again, I will probably take the same advice or similar. Which is, slightly modified by me, If you are making changes to your canopy practice high and stay safe for a period you set yourself, and ENJOY.
Life is a four letter word!

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He said, simply, 'no turns below 1000ft for the next 50 jumps'. I thought it was crap advice at the time but it sunk in and it has wisdom in it.



:o

That's fine right up until the point where someone cuts you off at 50ft and you panic, bury a toggle and hit the ground after your canopy does because you've never turned low before...

Really sketchy advice in my opinion.

You don't know when something like that will happen. It might be on the very next jump. Being under an unforgiving wing because you were going to be cautious with it for the next 50 jumps becomes utterly useless at that point if you don't already have the skills in the bag you need to survive.

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Ever since first learning about this sport I've always come to realize it's one of those that you never know anything. I totally understand and know what you guys mean about always learning, I'm not denying that!

In addition, I was very encouraged by the landing area at my dz, it wasn't a huge ass open field, instead a small square surrounded by corn that you sure as hell don't want to land in; trust me, I never landed in the corn ;)

I'm sorry you guys took my voice the wrong way. I assure you I'm safe, and I assure you that whatever I end up with between a sabre 150, pilot, or similar, that I will be on it for quite some time.

Sorry I got all of your panties in a bunch B|

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That's fine right up until the point where someone cuts you off at 50ft and you panic, bury a toggle and hit the ground after your canopy does because you've never turned low before...



Surely you've got to be stupid to do that. And doing it on a 170 as opposed to a 150 (which is all this guy is talking about, remember) is no safer or sensible.

I am crediting the guy with more intelligence. You, perhaps not. I wouldn't like to jump at your DZ if being cut up by someone at 50ft is a regular occurence, or even a rarity. Shame on your standards ;) Shouldn't your attention be on them as well?
Life is a four letter word!

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Surely you've got to be stupid to do that. And doing it on a 170 as opposed to a 150 (which is all this guy is talking about, remember) is no safer or sensible.



Nobody PLANS to do that, and yet it seems to happen pretty often. That's why low turn fatalities scare the crap out of me... I don't understand them. I have never made a low panic turn. I've never had to "stab out" of a low dive. And I'm willing to bet most people that die from "unintentional" (as USPA calls em) low turns never did it before either. If you assume they were all idiots, it might make you feel better about yourself and your chances of surviving your next jump. But you didn't know them, so try assuming that they were just like you. All of a sudden, low panic turns become a really scary thing. You're flying along, just like you have done for the last 800 jumps, and bam, you're suddenly throwing yourself at the ground for whatever reason. You never thought it would happen to you. Maybe that's exactly what each of them was thinking...

Intelligence has nothing to do with our reactions under canopy when things go to crap.

And a bigger canopy will go a little slower, so if you're going to turn yourself into the ground, a bigger canopy will help. A new jumper is far more likely to make a mistake like that than a more experienced one. That's why new jumpers should jump bigger canopies that fly and react more slowly.

Dave

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When you've seen enough people die, those you know and those you don't, and helped board (as in backboard) enough people who didn't die, you'll understand why "our panties are in a bunch".
I'd be grateful that enough people who've never met you are this vocal about not wanting YOU to die.
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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When you've seen enough people die, those you know and those you don't, and helped board (as in backboard) enough people who didn't die, you'll understand why "our panties are in a bunch".
I'd be grateful that enough people who've never met you are this vocal about not wanting YOU to die.



I understand dude, I don't think you have to take it that far. Relax..

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Have you ever got stuck going downwind yet 888?

I didn't get my first downwinder till jump ~150.

I had just passed 100 tip toe standups in a row, my head was inflated and was looking to downsize, then due to a bad spot ended up going downwind in 15 knots.

I walked away from that one but came out extremely battered and bruised, very humbling experience.

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I understand dude, I don't think you have to take it that far. Relax..



I don't know you, 88, and I said all I have to say in the "dick" thread, but did you read the TCNelson threads? Real attention-getters.

I'm not saying you are not trying, not heads-up, not capable. I'm not saying you can't hammer in if you want to. If I were a DZO, I'd have a lot to say about it, but I'm not so it doesn't matter.

I will say that there is a period a novice jumper goes through where that jumper feels fully competent, invulnerable and superbly knowledgable. That is a dangerous time we all must or have gone through.

Maybe it lasted a year and 200 jumps. Maybe we learned at 30 jumps when we watched our friend crater in. Of course, there are plenty of guys who bounced while in that period.

I've never met a skydiver, and doubt there are any, who was not scared, unhappy and deeply concerned when they noticed a DGIT. It's not taking it too far to say, "Hey - I've seen this before. I think I'll talk to this DGIT before the Reaper shows up."

If you're totally understanding all this, cool. If not, then stop what you're doing and learn from us "oldies". Skydiving isn't like football or track. One doesn't have to be 18-23 to be at the peak.

Apropos nothing, and in conclusion, don't be in a hurry. Remember the bulls on the hill? Just walk down the hill and fuck as many as you want. It's worth it. ;)
"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

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I understand dude, I don't think you have to take it that far. Relax..



OK, let's take it in a relaxed way. Maybe you will survive all your landings and have fun. Sounds good to me.

Maybe you will get yourself in a situation that would be better handled with a more conservative canopy and you will die. Then this thread (together with the relevant incident report) will serve as a valuable tool to potentially save lifes of other jumpers. Sounds good to me as well.

(I've already met a few fellow new jumpers with similar canopy progression. The good news is that those of them who went in usually just broke their legs or ankles. Only like 1 or 2 died due to pilot error on landing.)

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A few weeks ago I did my first unplanned low turn while doing a tandemvideo. Jump number 1720 or something. Spotting was done by the pilot with gps because of cloud cover eh haze. Open up canopy, above said haze, no clue where I am, fly towards some other TMs. Coming out of it at 1500 ft or so, it's a bad spot, way off, where the $%^& am I and where is my tandem, pick a field hmm not many decent fields to choose from here, I'm on final and I'm going to make it over that ditch with a lot of barbed wire, no I'm not the wind's picked up a LOT, ok 90o turn to the left, $%^& now I see there's a thin wire in the middle of the field looks like it has current running through, i'm really low now but don't want to hit that, ok flat 180o to the right going towards some cows that are in this field, land in the turn, slid in on my upper leg, shaken, muddy, but luckily I'm unhurt.

This was a crappy spot, crappy weather but been there done that before, the difference is I was tired a bit and in the process of getting sick, at least that's my excuse for making so many bad decisions in one jump. But don't think it can never happen to you, and better have the skills (and the right canopy helps a lot here too) to pull crap like this off.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

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Ah it awas like one of these jumps
(* I`ll quote somebody on this forum, didn`t remember name, sorry)

Landing straight in is easy. Basic maneuvers aren't too exciting until things start getting wrong but that's exactly what you're sizing your canopy for - a down-wind landing on pavement following a low turn to avoid power lines you didn't see until it was almost too late due to low light on the sunset load where you are landing out due to a bad spot because some cute girls flashed the pilot, everyone got extra altitude, and your hypoxic friend got his foot stuck on the seatbelt so your climbout took too long.
dudeist skydiver #42

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If that makes all of you sleep at night, sure, I'll be that guy for all the rest of you to use as an example. Too bad I'm smart and won't be getting hurt.



Dude, the reality of the matter is that many people much smarter than you have gotten hurt. A lot of times it has little to do with brainpower, but a lot to do with training, muscle memory and ambient environment.

Furthermore, smart people know that in skydiving there mostly two kinds of people : the ones who already got hurt, and the ones who will.

Have fun, try not to die.

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You guys need to think about this;

think about the hundreds of other individuals with 30 jumps who AREN'T posting on here asking their questions and trying to figure out the best solutions. They're the ones that are making that deadly jump from a 210 navigator to a 150 stiletto.. Do you guys not see that I'm using my resources and learning? You have just taken this completely the wrong way!

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