From a Sabre 150 to Stiletto 150..

[eightate8at8 0]

Do you think this is a safe transition to make while in the 30-60 jump range?

I've flown a Sabre2 150, really liked it as it didn't seem like too much. Currently I have a 155 that is probably more related to a more square Sabre1.

Obviously the Stiletto is a hp canopy, but if used with more caution for the first 50 or so jumps before gradually testing it, do you think it would be alright?

[Blink 0]

*Gets the popcorn and takes a seat.*

Read through the forums. This is what kills people, reckless progression.

Edit: I believe PD also requires the jumper to have 500 jumps prior to jumping a Stiletto. A good guideline is call the company, tell them your jump numbers, experience, and if they will sell you a Stiletto. When they laugh, that's your answer. There's no such thing as flying it conservatively until you're capable of flying it.

[Jbag 0]

Quote

Do you think this is a safe transition to make while in the 30-60 jump range?

I've flown a Sabre2 150, really liked it as it didn't seem like too much. Currently I have a 155 that is probably more related to a more square Sabre1.

Obviously the Stiletto is a hp canopy, but if used with more caution for the first 50 or so jumps before gradually testing it, do you think it would be alright?

No! and definitely not at your jump numbers. anyone can fly a HP canopy conservatively, but what happens when something unexpected happens and you dont have the experience to fix it or escape unscathed...its a really bad idea all around...get something more suitable to your experience like a sabre 2 or a pilot or a safire 2...something along those lines...i guess the PD storm is now in that levle too.

IHYD

[eightate8at8 0]

I understand it's a huge step.. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way to fly it super conservatively for a while.

I have heard others jumping on one at roughly 40 jumps; not saying that's ok just saying. In addition, my exit weight is about 150, so it would be basically 1:1, maybe 1.1:1

[eightate8at8 0]

Quote

get something more suitable to your experience like a sabre 2 or a pilot or a safire 2...something along those lines...i guess the PD storm is now in that levle too.

Yeah, I've been looking at say a storm, pulse, or maybe spectre..

Are the safire and safire 2 similar? (Unlike Sabre1 vs 2..)

[humbled1 0]

Quote

I understand it's a huge step.. I'm just trying to figure out if there's a way to fly it super conservatively for a while.....

Yep, don't jump it.

I think you knew the answer before your original post and you are just looking for someone to tell you to do it.

Keep in mind I have put over 250 jumps in the last year on my canopy and my w/l is 1:1, and I never, ever wished I was on a smaller canopy, especially when things went wrong, and they will, sooner or later.

What's your hurry?? Let me guess, you can get a good deal on it??

Good luck whatever you decide

"Tell ya the truth, I don't think this is a brains kind of operation."

[eightate8at8 0]

Haha, just trying to get some extra information..

If I went to a safire, then 149 would be the winner?

[Jbag 0]

save your femur and go to a safire. ive been on the same sabre 2 170 for 200 jumps now and i have been very happy on several occasions for not downsizing and changing shit up...ask the folks at skydive elsinore =D. if you know people that have gone to it then they got really bad advice or no advice at all. odds are against you if you make the jump from sabre 1 to stilleto at 29 jumps...make the right choice, there is plenty of time and sky out there for you to move to a HP landing.

IHYD

[ghost47 18]

Hey 8888,

Can you do all this?

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

If not, stick with your current canopy until you can.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

If I went to a safire, then 149 would be the winner?

Safire or Safire 2? The original Safire 149 is about equivalent to 140 sq ft the way a Safire 2 (or PD or Aerodyne) main is measured.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Do you think this is a safe transition to make while in the 30-60 jump range?

Absolutely not. Based on 600 jumps made on my Stiletto. Although I had 600 jumps when I got my Stiletto (the previous 200 were on a Batwing one size bigger) it didn't always land in a straight line.

PD wouldn't even sell one to people with less than 500 jumps. While PD's other canopies are better behaved today, the Stiletto isn't.

Even in 2010 Brian Germain forbids the use of fully elliptical canopies by jumpers with fewer than 300 jumps.

Quote

Obviously the Stiletto is a hp canopy, but if used with more caution for the first 50 or so jumps before gradually testing it, do you think it would be alright?

No. The Stiletto is more sensitive to toggle input than any other popular canopy. John LeBlanc detuned all the following PD designs because too many jumpers had problems with roll axis stability landing Stilettos.

One issue is that at low altitudes small amounts of input (whether intended or not) will quickly roll the canopy into a diving turn so you may end up headed at the ground fast in an unrecoverable attitude if you get surprised in the landing pattern (likely) or don't instinctively limit your control inputs when you get back low from a long spot.

That leads to issues like this:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212

even though the jumper had about 480 jumps when he died under a Stiletto 150.

The other is that it's very sensitive to harness input with the brakes stowed and has strong over-steer. Combine the two with failing to be level and relaxed during opening and/or not dealing with situations promptly and you will cutaway due to spinning malfunctions with line twists.

While you may not be loading it heavily, the control sensitivity problems are more a function of the canopy (shape and line length) than how heavy you are.

You might get lucky. You might not. Nerve pain after you stretch or kink a nerve from a simple tibia/fibia fracture really hurts even with lots of opiates. Bone grafts where they cut a hole in your back to drill into the top of your pelvis hurt too. You don't want to make that bet.

Stilettos also have a short recovery arc which encourages people learning to swoop who don't like carving approaches to err towards the low side and dig out which is less tolerant of mistakes than more modern canopies, although you shouldn't be making turning approaches where that will be an issue.

[eightate8at8 0]

I appreciate the reinforcement not to make this move..

I plan on making the switch from a Chute shop 155 ZP to a Sabre 150..

Not much difference, but I'm sure the sabre flies a little nicer, and one major plus will be the pack volume; seeing as how the 155 is south african material and packs like a bitch in my I33

[drdive 0]

If you have good insurance, go for the Stiletto. ER Docs need to make a living too

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[phoenixlpr 0]

Shortly: forget about the Stiletto. Get an all around canopy: Sa* Spe* Sto* Pi*.....

[flipper 0]

Quote

.... In addition, my exit weight is about 150, so it would be basically 1:1, maybe 1.1:1

Why not think about a 170 ... PD has the sabre2 150 at your exit weight as suitible for Intermeadiate jumpers

http://performancedesigns.com/products.asp?product=sa

[davelepka 4]

Quote

Why not think about a 170 ... PD has the sabre2 150 at your exit weight as suitible for Intermeadiate jumpers

It's simple, he already bought a container so small he can barely fit his current 155 into it, so his first priority in looking for a canopy is that it has to fit into his rig.

No, i'm not kidding.

[flipper 0]

Quote

Quote

Why not think about a 170 ... PD has the sabre2 150 at your exit weight as suitible for Intermeadiate jumpers

It's simple, he already bought a container so small he can barely fit his current 155 into it, so his first priority in looking for a canopy is that it has to fit into his rig.
No, i'm not kidding.

Thanks .. that explains it

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Why not think about a 170 ... PD has the sabre2 150 at your exit weight as suitible for Intermeadiate jumpers

It's simple, he already bought a container so small he can barely fit his current 155 into it, so his first priority in looking for a canopy is that it has to fit into his rig.
No, i'm not kidding.

Thanks .. that explains it

And you probably missed his other thread.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681734;#3681734

[MarkM 0]

If you have to use the words "caution" and "conservatively", it's usually something you shouldn't be doing.

[g3ninfinite 0]

888@8 have you tried a pilot? I liked the sabre 2 and storm but the Pilot really is in the running with the pulse. Still gotta try a saphire 2

[wmw999 2,121]

Frankly, if you really want to learn to fly your canopy, you should get the largest, most forgiving one that will fit in your probably-too-small container, and fly the shit out of it for a couple hundred jumps.

That way if you mess up, there's more fabric above you. It takes awhile to make most of the likely mistakes on a canopy, and you're much better off making them with a larger rather than a smaller canopy.

I'd seriously consider the Silhouette -- it has a ZP top but the bottom isn't ZP, so it should pack more easily. It's predictable (which is NOT a bad thing -- ask any swooper if they want a predictable or an unpredictable canopy), and it will give you a good combination of experience flying something that's both a modern canopy, and will fit in your container. Packing it yourself means you can afford more jumps.

If you get coaching & mentoring for a period (don't just ask your local swooper to watch you land a couple of times) you should be good to go to a noticeably higher-performance canopy, OR a smaller canopy after awhile.

Why do all this stuff? It reduces the amount of luck involved in landing safely. Reducing the amount of required luck means that you have control over your landings. And once you have consistent control, then you can increase the chances in a predictable manner.

I have a couple thousand jumps, and weigh about what you do. I jump a 150 at the moment, and am unlikely to go below a 135. They're plenty fun for me. That doesn't make me the same as you, but it does mean that it's possible.

Also consider that if you do RW (recommended for lower-time jumpers even if you plan to freefly in the long run), you'll probably need to wear weights at your size. Which will increase your wingloading on whatever canopy you're jumping.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

8:

You are working WAY too hard at this and putting your life and limb at risk. Try this:

1. Fill a cooler with adult beverages and ice.
2. Take cooler to your home DZ.
3. Chat with the S&TA or the Chief Insturctor and ask which rigger you should bring your gear selection questions to.
4. Throw yourself on the mercy of the recommended rigger. Promise lots of adult beverages after the beer light goes on.
5. Trust this rigger... stop surfing the net for products and advice for a matter that LITERALLY IS OF LIFE AND DEATH IMPORTANCE.
6. Follow the advice you get from this rigger.
6. Send all your rigging business through this rigger for your first year.
7. Wait for beer light, open cooler, pay your beer debt AND... spread your beer around to the experienced folks at the DZ and LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN.

Stay Safe

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Have you talked to the instructors and coaches where you jump? If you have and they are OK with it you should find somewhere else to jump.

[LyraM45 0]

Quote

8:

You are working WAY too hard at this and putting your life and limb at risk. Try this:

1. Fill a cooler with adult beverages and ice.
2. Take cooler to your home DZ.
3. Chat with the S&TA or the Chief Insturctor and ask which rigger you should bring your gear selection questions to.
4. Throw yourself on the mercy of the recommended rigger. Promise lots of adult beverages after the beer light goes on.
5. Trust this rigger... stop surfing the net for products and advice for a matter that LITERALLY IS OF LIFE AND DEATH IMPORTANCE.
6. Follow the advice you get from this rigger.
6. Send all your rigging business through this rigger for your first year.
7. Wait for beer light, open cooler, pay your beer debt AND... spread your beer around to the experienced folks at the DZ and LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN.

Stay Safe

Great advice!!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

Have you talked to the instructors and coaches where you jump? If you have and they are OK with it you should find somewhere else to jump.

Your instructors and coaches are not that experienced, and probably won't be the ones who go to the hospital if you do something stupid. Some have a lot of experience but have been jumping small fast parachutes so long they don't think anything of it.

I've visited three instructors in the hospital (one of them twice) because they demonstrated bad canopy skills and personally know two more that are now dead from the same cause.

Start with the position held by people with a lot of experience, like Brian Germain (10,000 jumps; designs canopies; teaches canopy flight; writes books about it; studied psychology in school; writes books about sports psychology).

If your instructors have seen you perform worse than average, follow their advice to be more conservative.

Landing into the wind in a big, wide open field is not a big deal.

It is a big deal (as in people get broken and killed) making a low turn to land down wind off the DZ at dusk because a cute girl flashed the pilot for extra altitude on the sunset load, your buddy got hypoxic and stuck on a seatbelt, that led to a long spot, and you didn't see a power line or fence until you were very low.

Either your instructors haven't seen you land out, make low turns when you didn't see some one in the landing area, land on pavement, land down-wind, etc. and so they haven't seen enough to suggest less conservative behavior or you have a history of bad judgement which means you need to be more careful than other people.

I've known a few skydiving 70-80 year olds and lots in their 50s and 60s. You have plenty of time. In the grand scheme of things it's not going to matter if you wait a couple years before jumping an elliptical parachute.