NWFlyer 2 #1 June 13, 2008 Hypotehtical based on an actual scenario I've witnessed (from the ground, where my conservative ass was already watching). It's a windy day, winds are moderately high and gusty (for the sake of argument, let's say 12 mph, gusting to 18), but you decide it's within your comfort range and get on a full Otter load that's about half tandems and half fun jumpers. About a minute out from jump run, the DZM radios up to the pilot and says "Winds have picked up, bring down the tandems." This information is conveyed to everyone on the plane, and fun jumpers are given the option of jumping or riding the plane back down. Armed with this information, would you still jump? I'm curious what influences peoples' decision-making on jumping or standing down in windy conditions, short of a total shutdown of DZ operations."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MajorDad 0 #2 June 13, 2008 Tamdems being grounded is a real good clue it is time stay in the plane and to grab some lunch when on the ground Blue Ones Major Dad CSPA D-579 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #3 June 13, 2008 Winds have picked up, tandems are staying on the plane.... so am I! If it's too windy for a tandem it's definitely too windy for my scrawny little ass...The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #4 June 13, 2008 My last vacation, winds were gusting from around 12mph to over 20mph. While I can (and have) landed in a steady 20mph wind, the frequency and amount of gustiness were beyond my self-imposed safety level. I was home for two weeks - I made one jump, the day before I left (in 8-10 mph winds).Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #5 June 13, 2008 At my DZ if the Tandems are called down the load will come down too. However based on your scenario with a 6mph gust i would not be jumping any ways You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilot-one 0 #6 June 13, 2008 No way would I jump but that's not the way it is at my dropzone. Very rarely do the tandems not jump. I have been sitting out a lot lately because of 10 MPH gusting to over 20ish. Maybe I'm sitting out too much....nah. I like my bones the way they are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BIGUN 1,049 #7 June 13, 2008 Yup,Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
strop45 0 #8 June 13, 2008 In that situation, I seen the sports jumpers ride the plane down (i.e. not allowed to exit) and the Tandems jump. I had pulled himself off the load, as the winds were too high for me when the plane took off, 5 minutes later they increased another 10-15 mph and were very gusty. It was unpleasant being on the ground in the wind and it was interesting trying to catch tandems landing backwards.The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #9 June 13, 2008 Sweet......Cross country time. you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #10 June 13, 2008 Quote Yup, Looks like I'd be doing two ways with BIGUN i guess! It comes down to what your comfortable with, I did a demo last weekend in Nor.Cal. The winds Saturday were 26 gusting to 34...since the wind-line was parallel to the runway we had literally 2 miles of outs..."5 right & CUT!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #11 June 13, 2008 QuoteIt comes down to what your comfortable with, I did a demo last weekend in Nor.Cal. The winds Saturday were 26 gusting to 34... Hey, thanks for not fucking up and making skydivers look stupid here in NorCal. I don't get it. Why take the extra risk in front of spectators? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #12 June 13, 2008 I don't get it. Why take the extra risk in front of spectators? *** Simple. Cuz Airtwardo's a bad motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DoubleBagg 0 #13 June 13, 2008 Nope, don't mind moderate winds, it's the gusts I don't like. And as was said above, tandems grounded? Scary!Just once I'd like to be called "sir", without someone adding "you're inciting a riot". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #14 June 13, 2008 More than likely, I'd be one of the tandems. In reality, well, we don't radio up like that. We actually call the winds. And yes, if they were under 30 or so, I'd likely jump. At some point in my skydiving career, something very odd happened. Landing in a jump plane now scares me more than getting out of one. It's not that I don't trust our pilots, they're all quite competent. It's something to do with not having the controls AND not knowing what to do if I did have them (landing frontside on a tandem with a guy doing his first rigside tandem on my back doesn't scare me much anymore either). Blues, Dave "I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #15 June 13, 2008 Quote Quote Yup, Looks like I'd be doing two ways with BIGUN i guess! Make it a 3-way. And between me and Keith, you better plan on arching. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeasabird 0 #16 June 13, 2008 I will do 30 up to 40 gusts tops. Done it a couple times by chance with no issues. But only since I have a heavy wingloading. Any lighter loadings and my tastes would be proportionately lower winds.----- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 6 #17 June 13, 2008 Hey, thanks for not fucking up and making skydivers look stupid here in NorCal. I don't get it. Why take the extra risk in front of spectators? extra risk IS a relative term...Especially in Skydiving. Add demonstration Jump to that and the risk usually increases somewhat...but as a 'Professional' demonstration jumper it's in my perview to assess the risks and make a business decision. Can I pull this off ~ #1-without hurting anyone on the ground... #2- without getting myself hurt... And most importantly ~ #3- without making skydivers look stupid in NorCal...(or anywhere else for that matter) Those actually ARE my considerations...BUT I also need to take into account that an event organizer has shelled out upwards of 5,000 USD for what amounts to 21 minutes of performance over 3 days. That means I have 7 minutes per day, to get it done, done right ... make it look fun, easy and entertaining, while landing on time on target and 'working' the sky in a manner that allows the spectators to see and enjoy my 'act'. Also a part of that business decision is insuring I'm not injured because more often than not I have to do it again in a few days, somewhere else in the country. It's not a dz 'fun jump' nor is it a 'competition' jump that can be practiced ad nauseum to remove much of the stress of having to make fast and correct decisions continually through out the dive....it's a demo, and outside of combat insertion, it's arguably the most difficult type of jump to do. SO...how does one 'not fuck up' and remain 'in business' ? By absolutely knowing the limits of ones skills and having the confidence to trust both judgement and ability. It's called professionalism and it's one reason I've jumped that particular event for the past 7 years...and don't get 'paid' with free beer and handshakes. The event organizers TRUST me to be safe, and fill my time slot ~IF AT ALL POSSIBLE. For me it was more than possible, it was probable...and since I landed on time, on target, standing up...like I have on 99% of the 1200+ paid demos I've performed in the past 30 years, I'll put that one in the success column. Have I 'stood down' from a gig before? YOU BET, and I will again if in my mind, the risk once calculated, is greater than the benefit. You don't get to be IN this business for over 30 years, having NEVER been injured...without being able to 'know when to hold 'em & know when to fold 'em. Hell...if it was easy, everybody would be doing it! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #18 June 13, 2008 18 MPH is only about 15 knots. My cut off is around 23 knots depending on the fluctuations in velocity between gusts. Those sorts of decisions are best left to the DZSO/CI not individuals."When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #19 June 13, 2008 QuoteIn reality, well, we don't radio up like that. We actually call the winds. And yes, if they were under 30 or so, I'd likely jump. Now that there's been a little discussion ... a little more info from the actual (non-hypothetical) day that I observed this (at Z-Hills, FWIW). The day in question came immediately following a day where almost the whole day was rained out. (I was curious to see if some people would say "It would depend on how many jumps I'd gotten in that weekend"). I don't have actual wind speed numbers, nor do I know if the folks on the plane received that much detail. Most of the fun jumpers chose to ride down with the tandems. A few didn't. There were two planes in the air at the time - I believe that one plane got the message successfully, one didn't. After watching the load that didn't get the message land (and the few stragglers that chose to land from the load that did), 20 of the 23 people in the loading area walked back in. At that point, the DZ shut down operations for the day, anyway. I started this discussion because I'm really curious what it takes for people to stand down. Tandems go up in conditions that cause a lot of others on the dropzone to sit down - they're usually the last to "call it" on account of wind. To me, if the dropzone is willing to give up the revenue of a tandem (and in particular, if a dropzone is willing to eat the cost of sending up and bringing down half a plane load of tandems), the wind has gotten pretty far beyond what most jumpers should be up in. The recent incident in Greensburg (where the jumper had one biffed landing due to what he described in his own logbook as "funky" winds, yet chose to jump again and paid the price) got me to thinking ... how do people decide when they've had enough of the winds?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #20 June 13, 2008 Quote Those sorts of decisions are best left to the DZSO/CI not individuals. I presume you mean only on the "don't jump" side of the coin. Every jumper should have their own comfort zone, as you've expressed, and the S&TA (or equivalent) can override their upper limit on a "ride it down" basis but not a "these winds are fine, get out" basis. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
propslop 0 #21 June 13, 2008 I really need more information. Does the plane have landing gear or have they been ripped off? http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=883_1210112990 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #22 June 13, 2008 QuoteI started this discussion because I'm really curious what it takes for people to stand down. Tandems go up in conditions that cause a lot of others on the dropzone to sit down - they're usually the last to "call it" on account of wind. To me, if the dropzone is willing to give up the revenue of a tandem (and in particular, if a dropzone is willing to eat the cost of sending up and bringing down half a plane load of tandems), the wind has gotten pretty far beyond what most jumpers should be up in. The recent incident in Greensburg (where the jumper had one biffed landing due to what he described in his own logbook as "funky" winds, yet chose to jump again and paid the price) got me to thinking ... how do people decide when they've had enough of the winds? I pretty much decide on the ground unless I've got a student. I've never ridden a plane down due to winds with a tandem, but I have with all the other types. Last year at Dublin I made one jump on Saturday. I had to PLF for the first time in years, so packed my stuff up at 11 AM or so, grabbed a beer, and occasionally watched those bolder than me land. Two or three weeks ago I rode the plane down once (had an AFF student), and let main side ride down with another student while I chased some 10-way. I have more experience backing in landings than I do landing in airplanes and prefer it whenever possible (within reason). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #23 June 13, 2008 the last time this happened to me, the first group got out, my group was setting up in the door, TI tells first tells one person in our group not to go, .. while we are trying to figure out what is going on, we are all advised not to go... .. After the otter tried a few attempts to land, and could not, I got the idea. We ended up landing at a nearby airport because the winds picked up so high. It was fun watching a lil more fear in the TI's faces than the students.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Baksteen 84 #24 June 13, 2008 12 mph gusting to 18, that's 5 m/s gusting to 8. Tough one.. While this is (just) within legal limits for someone with less than 200 jumps, I'm not entirely certain about my comfort zone. It all depends on the wind direction and expected turbulence, possible outs downwind etc. I guess this is something I'd discuss with manifest or the instructor on duty before making my decision. But if I'd be on the plane and heard about tandems being grounded, there's no way in hell I'm going to exit."That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport." ~mom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrwrong 0 #25 June 13, 2008 Nope. I'd stay in the plane. But if asked the samt thing 1 year ago I'd have jumped any way. This 'wisdom' comes from a weekend with really shitty weather and on the sunday we got a broken sky instead of a complete cloud cover as the days before. The wind was quite hard, later I was told it gusted up to 30-32 knots, but I didn't think it was to bad. BAD thinking. We did our jump and all was okay until I got my feet on the ground. A gust of wind actually got me airborn again flying backwards and I landed on my back 20 feet away... I was dragged 60 feet over the grass before I was able to collapse my chute. A horrible experience with a broken ego at the time. To be honest, if the jump leader would have bothered to step outside and meassure the wind speed to tell us the correct information BEFORE we took off I would have stayed on the ground. But a lesson learned without getting hurt physically.“The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.” - George Bernard Shaw He who dies with the most toys, wins..... dudeist skydiver # 19515 Buy quality and cry once! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
