control checks after opening

[mr2mk1g 10]

I've been reading through the recent thread re a fatality at Elsinore and this is a kind of spin off thread from that – together with the brake stowage thread also in this forum.

The conclusion is that the jumper did not release their brake toggles for some time but left them stowed to get back to the DZ. They apparently popped them somewhere prior to 2k whereupon a tension knot was discovered.

Now of course, leaving the brakes stowed until 2k was not the direct cause of the fatality - but it did contribute to it. If a control check had been carried out immediately after opening, the jumper would have had 1000 - 1500 ft to either try to clear the tension knot, or otherwise 1000 - 1500ft extra ft to find their reserve handle.

I recall a very similar incident in Perris a couple of years back where a jumper left her brakes stowed until final. She then discovered she had a brake line caught in her S-link, which lead to greater understanding within the community of the importance of proper excess brake line stowage.

The message I want people to focus on here is of the importance of correctly performing control checks immediately following opening.

We were all trained during our FJC to perform a control check immediately after opening. A failure to do this has now been a contributing factor in a number of fatalities. Often, they were entirely avoidable, which frankly only adds to their sadness.

PLEASE do what you were taught during your FJC and do a control check.

If your control check reveals a malfunction which necessitates a cutaway, you therefore have altitude to do so. If you leave it, even for only a thousand feet or so, you risk running out of altitude and failing to get your reserve out in time.

If you leave it to your hard-deck, you throw away any chance you may have had to clear the problem without the need for a cutaway.

If you leave it to finals, you are already below your hard-deck and you may as well not have bothered buying that nice expensive reserve in the first place.

This is day one training. It's done on day one because it's important. If you choose to ignore it, you do so at your peril.

[CornishChris 5]

Hey Matt

My mate Oli was the first at the scene of the fatality in Perris a few years ago. The individual (I think it was a guy) spiralled in from about 250 feet after unstowing his brakes late after flying back from a long spot. The effort he saved himself after opening cost him his life.

I agree with you that until you have performed your checks you don't know if you have a working parachute. Finding out that you don't is not something you want to be dealing with at under 1000 feet.

Anyway take care mate, be good to jump together some time.

CJP

Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people

[chuckakers 370]

Agreed.

By the way, what's the point of leaving the brakes stowed anyway (beyond the time needed to stow sliders, disconnect camera wings, etc)?

That's not a rhetorical question. If anyone has a good answer for that I'd like to hear it.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DougH 270]

I think some jumpers have the belief that keeping the canopy with its brakes set is an effective way to return from a long spot. I have heard this from other experinced jumpers, and I have heard it from newbie jumpers who have obviously learned it from the former.

Deep deep brakes and float it back if the uppers are strong, or get up on the top of the rears and really put them to work. Both are more effective and much safer than leaving your brakes set and trying to use rears.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[jsaxton 0]

I think the lesson here _may_ be, do your controllability check before you loosen your chest strap.

[virgin-burner 1]

arent we also taught to look at the handles and then grab them? i could imagine, having a problem as described, finding out about it low and not finding the handles instinctively would one make panicking. maybe even an experienced jumper?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[chuckakers 370]

Quote

I think some jumpers have the belief that keeping the canopy with its brakes set is an effective way to return from a long spot. I have heard this from other experinced jumpers, and I have heard it from newbie jumpers who have obviously learned it from the former.

Deep deep brakes and float it back if the uppers are strong, or get up on the top of the rears and really put them to work. Both are more effective and much safer than leaving your brakes set and trying to use rears.

"Deep deep" brakes will actually cause the canopy to descend faster than holding partcial brakes. Using some brakes will slow the descent rate, as the canopy is not at its' slowest descent rate in full glide. However, going too deep (as in "deep deep") will diminish lift after the foward speed bleeds off, resulting in a greater descent rate than that of holding partial brakes.

Lift generated by a wing increases and decreases by the square of the speed. Double the forward speed, quadruple the lift, and vice versa. Go too slow and you lose the benefit of the lift generated by keeping some forward speed.

The perfect amount of brakes to hold to achieve the slowest descent rate is obviously different on every canopy type. The manufacturer can tell you what will work best for yours.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[DougH 270]

You are referring to the canopy just before the stall point. I am refering to putting the canopy in the brake configuration that nets minimum sink. If you have the uppers to work with float with them like a hot air balloon.

On every modern canopy I have jumped this has been very deep into the toggle stroke. Describe it how ever you want it, the words don't matter, because you can confirm with your eyes when you hit that sweet spot.

Either way this is taking away from the point, unstow your fucking brakes and check that your canopy works. Your canopy can go further a number of safer ways.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[FLJB 0]

I have read the incident and related threads and here are my two questions:

1. how do tension knots occur from unstowing the brakes? Is it because people don't stow the excess in the keepers but rather use the "wrap around the toggle or slink" method? I always thought tension knots occurred on opening because of sloppy line stowage and a line half-hitched around another line or the slider. in fact i think the FJC pictures everyone uses show a tension knot involving the slider and other lines and not the brake line (but don't hold me to that i could be mistaken).

2. When "popping" my brakes on opening, i have, except on student gear, had the toggles go right up to the keeper on the riser, not have them flying around behind me in the wind. is it a common occurrence for them to be able to get caught in the lines and cause a malfunction.

I admit i take my hands out of the toggles to loosen my chest strap & stow slider, but i am confident in my rear-riser manuevers and never had a question about where the brakes are or their ability to get caught in the lines. that only takes a few seconds and i am in clear airspace when it is conducted so i never gave it a second thought that it could cause a problem. Could it?

I am curious now after reading these threads.

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

I think some jumpers have the belief that keeping the canopy with its brakes set is an effective way to return from a long spot. I have heard this from other experinced jumpers, and I have heard it from newbie jumpers who have obviously learned it from the former.

I would point those people to Jan Chandlers death a few years back fom doing just that (but at 500 feet only to find a hung toggle) and remind them that NO MATTER WHAT you should have a completely controllable canopy above your hard deck - no matter how far away the spot is.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[Booster_MPS 0]

Quote

I have read the incident and related threads and here are my two questions:

1. how do tension knots occur from unstowing the brakes? Is it because people don't stow the excess in the keepers but rather use the "wrap around the toggle or slink" method? I always thought tension knots occurred on opening because of sloppy line stowage and a line half-hitched around another line or the slider. in fact i think the FJC pictures everyone uses show a tension knot involving the slider and other lines and not the brake line (but don't hold me to that i could be mistaken).

2. When "popping" my brakes on opening, i have, except on student gear, had the toggles go right up to the keeper on the riser, not have them flying around behind me in the wind. is it a common occurrence for them to be able to get caught in the lines and cause a malfunction.

I admit i take my hands out of the toggles to loosen my chest strap & stow slider, but i am confident in my rear-riser manuevers and never had a question about where the brakes are or their ability to get caught in the lines. that only takes a few seconds and i am in clear airspace when it is conducted so i never gave it a second thought that it could cause a problem. Could it?

I am curious now after reading these threads.

1. If slack brake line is not properly stowed, when you grab a toggle you could possibly create a knot at the metal ring on the riser - imagine grabbing a toggle that has gone through a loop of line.

2. Even if you carefully release tension on your brakes to adjust your chest strap, it is possible for the wind to flip a toggle around the brake line

The lesson is to always look at what you are grabbing.

[denete 2]

Quote

The lesson is to always look at what you are grabbing.

And look at it carefully. I got a finger through a loop of brake line before unstowing the toggles once. I had looked at them when I put my hands into the toggles, but I didn't look carefully as my fingers curled around the toggles to pull them down.

I had to bite the line to take tension off it, and then pull my gloved finger out of the loop. I'm still not 100% sure about the balance between the pros and cons of wearing gloves.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[Booster_MPS 0]

denete

I had the exact same mal. I chose to keep the canopy as cutting it would have trapped my finger and I could flare and control it. Turns out the hitch came out at the bottom of my flare during landing.

[mdrejhon 8]

Quote

Agreed.

By the way, what's the point of leaving the brakes stowed anyway (beyond the time needed to stow sliders, disconnect camera wings, etc)?

High altitude cross-country.

You do a hop-and-pop at 13500 feet, and you don't want to tire your hands out holding the toggles. It's a 20 minute canopy ride! At an extreme, tired hands will make it difficult to flare - if you stay in deep brakes for 15 minutes nonstop to keep up with other cross-country canopy pilots, your arms are going to be very tired. (I find my canopy descends slowest at the beginning of the deep brake region, but before the flutter point where forward airspeed drops significantly). Instead, keeping them stowed keeps you in a braked configuration and you can use rear risers or harness turns to steer.

That said, for a crosscountry, I did pop them by about 5000 feet. It's a risk-tradeoff, and that's higher than a typical pull altitude anyway. Still definitely want plenty of safety margin well above the hard deck, no need to play with fire...

[DougH 270]

Sorry, another silly reason.

When your toggles are in your hands you can hook your hands around your MLW, your legs straps, your hip rings if you have an articulated harness.

It isn't tiring at all, you get use of your toggles to play with other jumps as you go, and you will go further than leaving the brakes stowed.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Quote

I think some jumpers have the belief that keeping the canopy with its brakes set is an effective way to return from a long spot. I have heard this from other experinced jumpers, and I have heard it from newbie jumpers who have obviously learned it from the former.

Deep deep brakes and float it back if the uppers are strong, or get up on the top of the rears and really put them to work. Both are more effective and much safer than leaving your brakes set and trying to use rears.

Being new to the sport feel free to take what I say with a grain of salt. But I have always been told that if you end up at a long spot pull high. Now I realize this can't always be done if you have other groups following you out that plan to pull at their normal pull altitude, but if you can it seems to work well. The other week I had a spot about a mile out with winds that were somewhat weak. Lucky for me I was last one out and I was able to pop at 5 and was able to release my breaks and do the controllability check and still made it back and within 20 M of the target. But like I said I'm new so feel free to ignore what I say.

[hackish 8]

I do a lot of h+p's at full altitude and don't normally unstow my brakes until about 5k. Still lots of time to deal with a brake stow problem but I do think it's a legit reason not to release the brakes immediately after opening. I would also prefer to chop something at 5k versus 14k - chances of getting your main back are much smaller.

I'm maybe wrong when I say this but I don't feel that a reserve ride that starts at 4k is significantly more dangerous than one that starts at 13k

-Michael

[jacketsdb23 45]

I think the nature of the original question was for normal openings of 2K-4K range. Do you loosen the chest strap if you open at 13K? I believe that everyone should unstow their brakes before loosening the chest strap.

People pay their money and take their chances.

Some of the recent fatality threads make me sad/angry. Some very basic principles that we learn in our FJC are being ignored. Physics doesn't change when we get a D license or 1000/2000/5000 jumps.

1. We need to make sure our canopy is flying correctly after opening. (remember FJC, Right 360, Left 360 - FLARE!)

2. If there is a problem get rid of your main. That is why we have a reserve. If you get to your hard deck and you can't land your parachute get rid of it. I have a reserve ride because I hit my hard deck and didn't have a canopy I could land. It was a simple brake fire. I knew I could fix it...but I hit 1800 ft, and the slider was over my toggles - I chopped.

Small canopies are really changing the fatality trends...and in more ways than just hook turns. Be smart out there people!

Losers make excuses, Winners make it happen
God is Good
Beer is Great
Swoopers are crazy.

[hackish 8]

Quote

I think the nature of the original question was for normal openings of 2K-4K range. Do you loosen the chest strap if you open at 13K? I believe that everyone should unstow their brakes before loosening the chest strap.

Yes I have once or twice. I suppose if you do have a mal that develops the possibility of falling out of the harness could exist if you had to chop and deploy your reserve. I assume that's the reasoning behind it? I usually loosen the chest strap by about 3-4" or as much as the harness wants to spread.

-Michael

[itllclear 1]

Quote

I usually loosen the chest strap by about 3-4" or as much as the harness wants to spread.

And that could be just enough to put the reserve handle out of reach as the harness shifts when you cut away and the tension of being suspended under the canopy is released.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."