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fcajump

Had a Bag Lock?

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Please keep this to ONLY your personal experiences.

If you've had a bag lock, I would be curious to hear your best assessment of the root cause and other contributing factors.

Blue ones,
JW
Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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I've had 1, caused by lines wrapped around the bag after deploying my pilot chute to clear a horseshoe. Voted in the no, with singe stowed tube stoes, as I didn't think the stow bands had anything to do with this one.
Also have to ask, who double stows with tubestoes?????
It's specifically NOT recommended by the manufacturer
This is the paradox of skydiving. We do something very dangerous, expose ourselves to a totally unnecesary risk, and then spend our time trying to make it safer.

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I had one but dont remember if I had bands or tubes (I used both that year and currently use silicon tubes) ... but know that I only singlke wrapped.

I put the experience down to sloppy packing (Pilot error).

P.S It cost me a good bottle of grog for my rigger too ... small price to pay IMHO

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

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Packer packed my rig, single wraps, excepting the locks, which were double wrapped. Exactly backwards.
Baglock.
I can't blame the tube stows; it likely would have happened with bands, too. However, I did switch over to bands, simply because I use packers a lot.

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"I've never had a bag lock and use double wrapped rubber bands"

I have had one partial bag lock due to break fire and line entanglement, but I do not feel that is relavent to your poll.

I have never had a traditional bag lock, I use standard rubber bands and double wrap every thing, locking stows and all.

I started doing this after talking to a very experienced jumper who was involved in some malfunction videos. Along with many others, they tried to create a bag lock. After double and triple stows, over and over with NO BAG LOCKS, they had to tie the bag up in some other fasion for their video.

DISCLAIMER: Your Millage May Vary


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I've seen one bag lock in freefall next to (and under) me. It was one of my students on first freefall (SL progress). Problem was that he was tumbling and falling on his butt. :S When he deployed few lines went under his armpit, so this few lines were extracted normally (they were shorter than others in this situation), and other lines didn't have any pulling force on them. Now this few snaged lines were pulling canopy fabric out, and other slack lines were still stowed in closing stow. This resulted in bag lock malfunction. After cutaway RSL deployed reserve before student could reach silver. During bag lock and cutaway student was falling in stand-up position.
We used normal (large dacron) rubber bands with single wrapped stowing. Band didn't brake !

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Had a bag lock once, but not related to stows, so I didn't vote in the poll. The deployment bag had some damage but I chose to ignore it and got what I deserved.
I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper.

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False!!!

I have personally seen bag locks caused by double stows. If you double stow carefully... sure. You can get away with it BUT I HAVE SEEN IT FIRST HAND!

DO NOT DOUBLE STOW IF YOU'RE SLOPPY OR JUST PLAIN LAZY!

IT CAN HAPPEN! I WILL PUT MONEY ON IT THAT I CAN CAUSE A BAG LOCK WITH REGULAR RUBBER BANDS DOUBLE STOWED.

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IT CAN HAPPEN! I WILL PUT MONEY ON IT THAT I CAN CAUSE A BAG LOCK WITH REGULAR RUBBER BANDS DOUBLE STOWED.



I'll take this bet using my rig under one simple condition. You don't do something that's clearly ridiculous. ;)

If you don't mind, would you please describe how you're going to do this?

Thanks
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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I'll take this bet using my rig under one simple condition. You don't do something that's clearly ridiculous.




Yeah, what hookitt said. I will take that bet as well.

If you watch me pack you would probably not call me carefull, for sure not lazy, and quiet possibly you would even call me sloppy. However, to use hookitt's words, I do try not to do things that are clearly ridiculous. I have double stowed every stow I have made since just after recieving my "A" and have never had any problems. Thats is probably nearing a 1000 pack jobs (I do use a packer often).

As I said before, Your Milage May Vary. I am not going to stand on a pedistal and scream out that what you are saying can not happen, but I would still take your bet. Actually I guess I have been taking your bet for nearly a 1000 pack jobs now. :ph34r:


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IT CAN HAPPEN! I WILL PUT MONEY ON IT THAT I CAN CAUSE A BAG LOCK WITH REGULAR RUBBER BANDS DOUBLE STOWED.



Richy, I think your mouth just wrote a check your ass can't cover. And there is no need to shout.

Sparky
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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I have not been on the internet since I posted last.

I will take on all bets. I am not afraid.

Just to prove you guys wrong though I will pack it for you and since you guys are so confident we will just disconnect the cutaway handle since you guys think it can't cause a malfunction.

I am a packer and have thousands of pack jobs. Once and awhile I double stow and like I said.. yes it can be done if you do it properly.

I am kicking myself in the ass for not taking pictures of the cutaway we had at our DZ two years ago from a student packing his rig with double stows. He let too much line get inbetween his stows and did not overlap the rubber bands right dead square on top of one another like they should be.

Ask anyone at Central Michigan Skydivers that was there. Scott Schlosser, Rick DeShano (S&TA), Warren Cleary, Myself and a half dozen other people.

It can be done a thousand times, sure.. if you do it right it will not cause a malfunction but we are not talking about if you do it right.

I bet PD would even say that if a double stow were done wrong it could cause a bag lock.

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ALL THE TIME PEOPLE!!! I AM TALKING ABOUT CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES. IF DONE UNPROPERLY IT CAN HAPPEN.

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He let too much line get inbetween his stows and did not overlap the rubber bands right dead square on top of one another like they should be.


I thought we covered this very well, how did we word it, "clearly ridiculous" I believe


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if you do it right it will not cause a malfunction


So you agree with us now?


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but we are not talking about if you do it right.


ummm, you may not be, but we are!


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I bet PD would even say that if a double stow were done wrong it could cause a bag lock.


Most things done wrong have the potential to cause a malfunction of some kind, I can not speak for PD, but I am sure they would agree just as you say


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IF DONE (double stow) UNPROPERLY IT (bag lock) CAN HAPPEN


again, I think I will have to agree with you on this one, however I never said that I stow them "UNPROPERLY" and as sparky said, there is no real need to shout about it anyway.


ok, that is enough hashing on you and it is all in good fun I promise.:)


I guess I could be a bit clearer on my original point. As I said I have a friend who was involved in some intentional malfunctions for video purposes. During this project *they* could not create a bag lock with improper stowed bands no matter how hard *they* tried. I was not there so I don't know just how sloppy they got, but it was reported that double stowing every stow was tried. Based on this, and other factors, I made the decision to start double stowing all my bands. I always use standard rubber bands and I never get sloppy with the stows. This has worked out good for me.

I am not trying to say that improper stowed lines are not more likely to bag lock if they are also double stowed.

Now, if you still want to bet, and you agree to not do anything clearly ridiculous, such as letting too much line get in between the stows and not overlap the rubber bands like they should be, then I am all for it.

What are we wagering? How about you pack until you give up or until I have a bag lock. If you give up, then I have said pack jobs for free. If I have a bag lock, then I will pay you for the packs, along with a nice tip. Either way I will buy you a :D

Oh and by the way, I will keep my cut away handle in place for our bet, thank you!:P


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I am not on anyones side so don't feel like you won with me saying double stows can work. So.. no I do not agree with you NOW I never said double stows cause malfuctions. I said they CAN cause malfunctions. They certainly increase the risk of malfunctions.

Shitty pack jobs CAN work.

Why in the hell would you double stow when you can just put on a smaller rubber band and eliminate the chance of anyone even possibly being lazy or sloppy??


The way the malfunction was packed like I previously described was not as exaggerated as you point out. Small errors can cause malfunctions. It doesn't have to be as you put it.

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I want in on this bet as well. Especially considering PD has been recommending double-stowed locking stows for some now.



I've heard someone else say that. Is there a document somewhere on their web site that has that in it? Is this something that certain people at PD are expressing verbally?

I didn't see anything in these documents:
"How to Prevent Hard Openings"
"Main Canopy User's Manual"

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I want in on this bet as well. Especially considering PD has been recommending double-stowed locking stows for some now.



I've heard someone else say that. Is there a document somewhere on their web site that has that in it? Is this something that certain people at PD are expressing verbally?

I didn't see anything in these documents:
"How to Prevent Hard Openings"
"Main Canopy User's Manual"




+1 on this one. Although I do double stow, I have never read or heard anything that would cause me to believe that any manufacture was supporting my actions. If anyone has an article with PDs opinion, or if any one that speaks for PD is reading this, I would like to hear.......


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NOTICE TO ALL WILLING SKYDIVERS

If you are willing to let me prove that I can cause a malfunction on your rig I am more than willing.

How much fun is a guy allowed to have??

Yes all the pack jobs will be free :P

Reserve pack jobs are your responsibility though. :ph34r:

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I've heard someone else say that. Is there a document somewhere on their web site that has that in it? Is this something that certain people at PD are expressing verbally?

I didn't see anything in these documents:
"How to Prevent Hard Openings"
"Main Canopy User's Manual"



Email John LeBlanc, that is who I got that from. Or talk to the packers at Deland.

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Email John LeBlanc, that is who I got that from.



Understood. I have gained a good deal of practical info from John, but if he thought it was a good idea for the masses of folks who have purchased PD canopies, you would think he would see to it that it was documented.

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Or talk to the packers at Deland.



Negative! They are not PD.


Folks, we all need to be careful about where we get technical information about gear. A lot of myths have gotten a firm foothold in our sport, and many have been passed from skydiver to skydiver and have lasted a decade or more before being changed.

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Email John LeBlanc, that is who I got that from.

Understood. I have gained a good deal of practical info from John, but if he thought it was a good idea for the masses of folks who have purchased PD canopies, you would think he would see to it that it was documented.

Or talk to the packers at Deland.

Negative! They are not PD.


Folks, we all need to be careful about where we get technical information about gear. A lot of myths have gotten a firm foothold in our sport, and many have been passed from skydiver to skydiver and have lasted a decade or more before being change



PD has often been slow to change literature. How old is their canopy manual? As for the packers at Deland, they changed to double-stowing after being told by PD.

Truth be told, I don't care for double stowing anything, especially locking stows, but it doesn't seem to be causing many problems.

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I never double-stowed until a few years ago - a friend told me that he was having hard openings on his Velocity - he called PD and they told him to use large rubber bands and double-stow. It worked for him, so I started doing it and it noticeably improved mine. The small line stows on my small canopies don't hold the lines hardly at all - they're just not small enough..
The small rubber bands have maybe a pound of pressure if that because they are just too big to hold the lines taut but too small to double stow...

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