danielcroft 2 #26 July 16, 2008 I've had a spinning mal & was under my reserve by ~1900. The turn that caused it (yes, ) was started at 3, the radio guy (all but AFFI) said I cut probably about hard deck which is 2500. I had time to evaluate the mal and I decided pretty quick that I wasn't going to be able to deal with it safely & cut. Part of the reason that there's a hard deck is so that people don't go fighting mals into the ground. If you get to your hard deck and you don't have a landable canopy, cut it. It simplifies the equation. A malfunction isn't always black and white but hard deck is. You're not even open at the hard deck on your main. What happens if you have a particularly long snivel and then line twists? Even if you aren't spinning, you still have to kick out of them. By that stage you may be approaching 1500 or lower at which point you may not even get to AAD firing speed in time for it to fire if you do cut away. These safety nets that are in place are there for a reason. Could you get away with it? Sure. When the shit hits the fan *you* have sacked the cards against *yourself*. To respond to the OP: I'd be very concerned about it personally but I doubt it's uncommon. I managed to get down to 4k before pulling on my recurrency this year (Level9) because instead of counting to 4 in my track & pulling I counted to 5 before I realized what was going on and then pulled. Definitely caused by overload in my case. If it'd happened again I'd be considering going back to an AFF level to get help. You're already there, just make sure you focus on the important bit which is pulling, pulling on time & pulling on time and stable. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #27 July 16, 2008 Quote Quote There are reasons to pull lower, and just cuase i can is not a good one. I pull at that height because it's where I feel most comfortable, I fly a very light wingloading and I'm fully open by on average ~2200ft. So if the minimum states I have to open at 3000ft for the next 15 jumps or so... I will obligued... but I do not feel any bit safer (quite the opposite) trying to do a 2 second delay poised exit. I was just doing what felt safe and comfortable So when I'm legally allowed to do it, of course I will go back to deploying at 2500ft. If that's ignorant, well I'm ignorant :( Bro, Do you not enjoy the canopy flight part of the skydive? For the record, nobody called you ignorant! All anyone ever tries to do on this site and IMHO in this sport is explain the risks of all choices! Sometimes, we learn the hard way. I learned the hard way about low turns/no flare/cross wind landings and had to take a 4 month break! I was told by many PRO's to sit the load out! But I choice otherwise. It is scary to think that your instructors have not explained this to you. Be safe, and I hope to skydive with you one day! Blues, Daniel Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #28 July 16, 2008 What happened on your sub-terminal opening that you didn't like? Mine have been butter smooth. If you want to build up your comfort level, work on getting stable and deployed as quickly as possible, pretend its an aircraft emergency or something. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #29 July 16, 2008 Quote What happened on your sub-terminal opening that you didn't like? From what I could tell, only half the canopy inflated and I was sent spinning. After 5-10 seconds of trying to do SOMETHING with the risers, I put my hands on my cutaway/reserve handles and it suddenly inflated fully/slider came down and flew straight Entirely self inflicted probably, due to my shitty body position trying to do a quick delay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivejeff 0 #30 July 16, 2008 Quote *** I was just doing what felt safe and comfortable So when I'm legally allowed to do it, of course I will go back to deploying at 2500ft. If that's ignorant, well I'm ignorant :( Your killin me here! Reading through this thread, I can hardly believe my eyes! We have an A licensed skydiver trying to justify why they pull lower than 1.) the BSR states and 2.)where they are comfortable...I DONT UNDERSTAND!!! It is common sense. When the skydive is over, it is over-you now have to save your life so you can do it again! Have some common sense, listen to the experience here and pull a bit higher! I have had 8 total cutaways-some due to CRW and some were from paid pack jobs ( I have yet to pack myself a chop)...what you may not realize is that everything happens FAST when you have a problem and need to fix it! -Altitiude is your friend; as a matter of fact, it is your best friend! Anyway, I could vent on this all day. The bottom line is this-Bump up your opening altitudes, the skydive is over and what is another 500-1000 feet of canopy flight but enjoyment. We have had too many friends get seriously injured or killed because of ignorance, please dont become part of that statistic! If you still wanna pull low, take up base jumping... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #31 July 16, 2008 QuoteQuoteI'm not struggling to get stable now, I just typically do a dive exit and read my alti down to 3ish, by the time I've opened it's 2500 and I'm under canopy 2+ so I don't see it as much of a problem. You're missing the point. You're still opening at 2500 when you should be opening at 3000. I cannot agree more. When I was a student, I was not allowed, ever, to pull below 4000. I moved down to 3500 and eventually to 3000, but have no hesitation whatsoever about bumping that up again if I'm doing anything new. My first pack job, pull at 4000. My first 2 way, break off at 4500 and pull at 4000. First jump after breaking for the winter, pull at 4500. Extra altitude is your friend!Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #32 July 16, 2008 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm not struggling to get stable now, I just typically do a dive exit and read my alti down to 3ish, by the time I've opened it's 2500 and I'm under canopy 2+ so I don't see it as much of a problem. You're missing the point. You're still opening at 2500 when you should be opening at 3000. I cannot agree more. When I was a student, I was not allowed, ever, to pull below 4000. I moved down to 3500 and eventually to 3000, but have no hesitation whatsoever about bumping that up again if I'm doing anything new. My first pack job, pull at 4000. My first 2 way, break off at 4500 and pull at 4000. First jump after breaking for the winter, pull at 4500. Extra altitude is your friend! Your speaking the gospel my friend! Besides, you can always burn extra alti once the canopy is open by just spinning a little. Heck, I actually like to spin my canopy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #33 July 16, 2008 Quote Quote Quote Quote I'm not struggling to get stable now, I just typically do a dive exit and read my alti down to 3ish, by the time I've opened it's 2500 and I'm under canopy 2+ so I don't see it as much of a problem. You're missing the point. You're still opening at 2500 when you should be opening at 3000. I cannot agree more. When I was a student, I was not allowed, ever, to pull below 4000. I moved down to 3500 and eventually to 3000, but have no hesitation whatsoever about bumping that up again if I'm doing anything new. My first pack job, pull at 4000. My first 2 way, break off at 4500 and pull at 4000. First jump after breaking for the winter, pull at 4500. Extra altitude is your friend! Your speaking the gospel my friend! Besides, you can always burn extra alti once the canopy is open by just spinning a little. Heck, I actually like to spin my canopy! I think you mean you like to spiral your canopy...Personally I like to do barrel rolls with mine on the way down... I should post that video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #34 July 16, 2008 Quote Besides, you can always burn extra alti once the canopy is open by just spinning a little. Heck, I actually like to spin my canopy! Hell yeah! Especially since spirals aren't a good idea below your hard deck, I like to leave a little bit extra for those mad spirals where you're looking sideways at your canopy and the horizon line is top to bottom and everyone on the ground can hear you shouting "woohoo!" -- it's great advertising for the tandem wuffos. Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #35 July 16, 2008 I think you mean you like to spiral your canopy...Personally I like to do barrel rolls with mine on the way down... I should post that video. Spirals... Thats exactly what I mean! I totally want to see barrel rolls under canopy holy crap that sounds cool... I didn't know you are not supposed to do spirals below hard deck! I swear I learn new stuff everyday about skydiving! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #36 July 16, 2008 Quote Just keep with it, you will be suprised how much you will improve from your initial jumps You still had a safe deployment height, it becomes easier after you lose some of the nerves and relax in freefall. Hop n pops really helped me, taking a nice 5 - 10 second delay / watching the altimeter go down below 3000 (my terminal deployment) to ~2500. When the pilot tells you to get out at 1000 feet, waiting to pull until you're at 0-500 feet is not going to be a good idea. If that happens you might just decide to ride it in so you don't have to lie with a low opening leading to a fate worse than death. Being able to get and deploy immediately is a safety issue. You should practice at a comfortable altitude. There's usually a good reason for safety rules and you don't want to be breaking them. What if you have a malfunction, the AAD is turned off, the RSL is disconnected, and your harness shifts? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #37 July 16, 2008 Quote Heck, I actually like to spin my canopy! As BillK said, you mean spiral (but that's ok, we knew what you meant ) Be careful - at 30-ish jumps, you're starting to shake off door fear, and are beginning to get comfortable enough with canopy flight (not yet proficient, but comfortable) that you're tempted start probing the outside of the envelope. First of all, if you do want to spiral (but see below), induce it with a gentle, gradual toggle input - if you just yank one toggle down real hard, you could easily cause your canopy to line-twist and spin up on you, at which point maybe you'll kick out of the twist, or maybe you'll have to cut away. Do that below your EP hard deck, and it could get ugly. (This really applies to any turn, not just a spiral.) Second, any spiral, even one gently induced, has the potential to spin up the canopy. At your experience level, you should always anticipate that that might happen; so it's best to (gently) recover out of the spiral no lower than it would be safe for you to cut away. Third, remember that spirals (and S-turns, etc.) are no-no's if there's other canopy traffic in the pattern with you; at best it makes your flight path unpredictable to other jumpers, and at worst it could cause a canopy collision. Especially at your low experience level, if you're going to spiral, best be sure there are no other canopies anywhere near you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #38 July 16, 2008 Quote Quote Just keep with it, you will be suprised how much you will improve from your initial jumps You still had a safe deployment height, it becomes easier after you lose some of the nerves and relax in freefall. Hop n pops really helped me, taking a nice 5 - 10 second delay / watching the altimeter go down below 3000 (my terminal deployment) to ~2500. When the pilot tells you to get out at 1000 feet, waiting to pull until you're at 0-500 feet is not going to be a good idea. If that happens you might just decide to ride it in so you don't have to lie with a low opening leading to a fate worse than death. Being able to get and deploy immediately is a safety issue. You should practice at a comfortable altitude. There's usually a good reason for safety rules and you don't want to be breaking them. What if you have a malfunction, the AAD is turned off, the RSL is disconnected, and your harness shifts? Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #39 July 16, 2008 Quote Third, remember that spirals (and S-turns, etc.) are no-no's if there's other canopy traffic in the pattern with you; at best it makes your flight path unpredictable to other jumpers, and at worst it could cause a canopy collision. Especially at your low experience level, if you're going to spiral, best be sure there are no other canopies anywhere near you Actually, I think the spirals in the context of this thread at the very least should be NO, NO's in the traffic area, period! That's what the play ground is for! Let me qualify that when I say spirals, I'm talking about the context of this thread, not a high performance setup!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #40 July 16, 2008 >Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Yes. You need to wait only long enough to clear the tail - a half second or so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #41 July 16, 2008 QuoteIs it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Absolutely! Oh and be stable doing it too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinhi79 0 #42 July 16, 2008 Quote Quote Heck, I actually like to spin my canopy! As BillK said, you mean spiral (but that's ok, we knew what you meant ) Be careful - at 30-ish jumps, you're starting to shake off door fear, and are beginning to get comfortable enough with canopy flight (not yet proficient, but comfortable) that you're tempted start probing the outside of the envelope. First of all, if you do want to spiral (but see below), induce it with a gentle, gradual toggle input - if you just yank one toggle down real hard, you could easily cause your canopy to line-twist and spin up on you, at which point maybe you'll kick out of the twist, or maybe you'll have to cut away. Do that below your EP hard deck, and it could get ugly. (This really applies to any turn, not just a spiral.) Second, any spiral, even one gently induced, has the potential to spin up the canopy. At your experience level, you should always anticipate that that might happen; so it's best to (gently) recover out of the spiral no lower than it would be safe for you to cut away. Third, remember that spirals (and S-turns, etc.) are no-no's if there's other canopy traffic in the pattern with you; at best it makes your flight path unpredictable to other jumpers, and at worst it could cause a canopy collision. Especially at your low experience level, if you're going to spiral, best be sure there are no other canopies anywhere near you. I did not realize that big canopies "i jump a 220 and my exit weight is about 200lbs" could spin up from spirals. This is really good info because I usually just pull down on one toggle really fast and do a few spirals and than pull the other one down fast to spiral the other way. It is super fun and I thought was pretty safe. I enter my landing patern at 1k feet and NEVER do anything unpredictable while in my landing patern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #43 July 16, 2008 Quote I usually just pull down on one toggle really fast and do a few spirals and than pull the other one down fast to spiral the other way That is exactly how to get one to spin up. Keep doing that and you'll be under line twists, even at those lower wing loadings. I actually like to pull high sometimes, a.k.a. a high hop-n-pop at 14k and play with things like this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LongWayToFall 0 #44 July 16, 2008 When I first jumped the canopy I have now, I induced spinning line twists because I was too aggressive on the toggles. I had been jumping student gear that wasn't very responsive and this canopy is pretty zippy and bit me. Be gradual with your inputs and you will stay out of trouble Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #45 July 16, 2008 Quote>Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Yes. You need to wait only long enough to clear the tail - a half second or so. Agreed. That being said I will go straight to silver if we get out anywhere below 2k. I think reserves are designed to open in like 500' or something like that.Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill_K 0 #46 July 16, 2008 QuoteQuote>Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Yes. You need to wait only long enough to clear the tail - a half second or so. Agreed. That being said I will go straight to silver if we get out anywhere below 2k. I think reserves are designed to open in like 500' or something like that. Not sure on the exact numbers, but I used one of my jumps at Skyfest this year to test jump a PD-176 as my main. I have video that proves it came out in less than 200 feet. Oh and that was on a hop-n-pop that I gave about half a sec and then threw. That thing came out fast, on heading and butter smooth. Those guys from PD knew their shit and made me feel real comfortable. I'm very happy to have a PD-176 in my container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #47 July 16, 2008 QuoteQuote>Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Yes. You need to wait only long enough to clear the tail - a half second or so. Agreed. That being said I will go straight to silver if we get out anywhere below 2k. I think reserves are designed to open in like 500' or something like that. Everyone off student status has to be his own judge on whether to go to main or straight to reserve - one's "last chance" canopy - on a low-altitude emergency exit. Obviously, how long your main typically snivels is an important factor (and I see you jump a Spectre). Of course, a 1-second delay isn't the same as a terminal deployment at the same altitude. On a 1-second delay, your true-vertical speed toward Earth is still well below terminal, but you still have most of the relative wind from the plane's forward throw into which to deploy your canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
millertime24 8 #48 July 16, 2008 Thats very true, but do you know exactly what your AGL is while your in the plane? I dare say unless your somewhere really flat then theres no way of knowing. We fly over mountains on our way up to altitude. Point being I know the speed of that reserve deployment is far faster than the main so if its 2000' or lower reserve it is (for me anyway). Muff #5048 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 0 #49 July 16, 2008 Quote Is it possible to exit the plane and pull within a second or so? Look up some crw (cf) video on skydivemovies.com. check this video for some examples of how NOT to do clear and pulls : http://www.paracentrumteuge.nl/component/option,com_weblinks/task,view/catid,56/id,108/ http://www.paracentrumteuge.nl/component/option,com_weblinks/task,view/catid,56/id,107/ (after 2 minutes) (all beginner skydivers + their boogie coaches) ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chubba 0 #50 July 16, 2008 I'll be a good boy from now on Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
