Brake coming off on opening

[captain1976 0]

Twice in the last 2 days I witnessed cutaways because a brake toggle let loose during the opening sequence setting up line twists on inflation so bad the canopies had to be ejected.
I can’t imagine this happening to me since I my rig has the Velcro on the toggle and riser to keep it in place. But recently when I used a PD demo rig, it had the type of toggle where it slipped into the top pocket as well as a pocket at a lower level on the riser. I don’t know what the actual name is and maybe someone can enlighten me on that, but on 2 of the dozen or so demo jumps I noticed the toggle had slipped out of the bottom pocket. This didn’t cause any concern but thinking about it I can see where it can set up a premature release with it flying out in the breeze like that. Both canopies that were cut away had this same setup. This seems like a bad design. Has anyone else had problems like this?

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Chubba 0]

I have velcro-less toggles on my rig, the bottom part has never come out on opening.

[aeronaut 1]

I witnessed 5 cutaways, because brakes coming off, with rigs that had this model of Velcro-less toggles. I think it is a bad design. I use only Velcro toggles and I never saw a Velcro toggle coming off, causing a cutaway.

[skybytch 259]

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I have velcro-less toggles on my rig, the bottom part has never come out on opening.

Yet.

Toggle fires used to be kinda rare, and since most people jumped big slow mains they usually didn't end in a cutaway. Since the introduction of non-velcro toggles, they happen fairly regularly, and with the more aggressive canopies people fly nowadays they often require a cutaway.

Not to mention the possibility of getting fingers caught in unstowed excess brake line (that'd never happen...).

Like the OP, I'm an old school velcro toggle type too. Have never had a brake pop on opening. The only downside to velcro is wear on the lower steering lines and that's only if you aren't careful (and replacing lowers is cheap and fast).

Personally, I think non-velcro toggles have created more issues than they solved...

[billeisele 122]

i use velcro - less toggles, have a few jumps and have never had a brake fire

but I do pack my own rig

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[Fall4fun2 0]

Most of the toggle fires I've seen where because... 1) the slider did it as it was slid over them with no slider stops or 2) a person put the toggle tab thru the cat eye ring when stowing them and the brake let loose on opening( I catch a lot of students doing this ) . Also I've seen one go after stowing the excess line on the risers too tight while packing and when the riser was pulled straight it was pulling the tab out of the keeper and line.

[ps5601 0]

There is more than one type of velcro-less toggles and like most things some are better than others.

The ones I have, and have jumped for about 600 jumps are very good (PdF). The 2 main styles I have seen are ones with a pin (similar to a pull out closing pin) that goes through the cats eye, or ones with a large hard fabric point that goes through the cats eye.

The pin ones (PdF) are good, and are not likely to be pushed off by the slider. The fabric ones I don't like so much. Not only can they be pushed off by the slider on a hard opening, but over time the fabric point becomes slightly distorted making it harder to take the brake off too.

I still prefer velcro-less toggles to velcro.

Blue skies

paul

[captain1976 0]

The PDF sounds good and the fabric ones you mentioned should be elimintated. Anything that sets up a possible malfunction (an there are probably a shitload) is dangerous.
Blue Skies

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[Snowflake 0]

I've Had 2 brake fires resulting in reserve rides. I had the risers replaced and the problem disappeared. I can't remember if they changed the design, but I'm on my second wings container 3rd set of risers and still no problems. Could have been a minor design flaw, because every 10th jump I had a misfire before I changed my risers.

My .02

[antonija 0]

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Could have been a minor design flaw, because every 10th jump I had a misfire before I changed my risers.

And that's what you call minor design flaw? 10% of openings resulting in brake fire?

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[Snowflake 0]

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Could have been a minor design flaw, because every 10th jump I had a misfire before I changed my risers.

And that's what you call minor design flaw? 10% of openings resulting in brake fire?

Did i stutter or write in a foreign language?

[antonija 0]

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Did i stutter or write in a foreign language?

None of the above. You proclaimed a design error that puts users in mortal danger 10% of the time a minor flaw. Either that was a very bad attempt at humor or you're quite suicidal, in any case please remind me not to take gear advice from you.

I understand the need for conformity. Without a concise set of rules to follow we would probably all have to resort to common sense. -David Thorne

[Snowflake 0]

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Did i stutter or write in a foreign language?

None of the above. You proclaimed a design error that puts users in mortal danger 10% of the time a minor flaw. Either that was a very bad attempt at humor or you're quite suicidal, in any case please remind me not to take gear advice from you.

Could you be a any more melodramatic? Mortal danger? I had 20 or so misfires and I'm still here. I had no problem unstowing the other brake thereby getting my self out of mortal peril...lol. I'm glad I didn't realize how much peril I was in or I would have freaked out and the lord only knows what would have happened then.

As far as gear advice I offered none. Also, I would never dream of offering advice to such a knowledgeable and experienced skydiver like yourself.

Remind me that I never want to jump with or meet you in person. Your much too smart for me.

[captain1976 0]

I had a discussion with Billy Weber today. Back in the 80’s when Billy and Jake Brake were running the rigger facility at Z Hills, they decided to start keeping stats on the malfunctions. Since any malfunction required them to inspect both the main and reserve after a cutaway there, they found that half of those chopped mains had 1 toggle out and 1 still set. They also briefed the jumper and got a statement. Though most of the jumpers didn’t admit to setting a brake wrong, most of their observations revealed they had.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[JumpRu 14]

My teammate had several break fires resulted in cutaways, the reason was that toggle keepers on one riser were placed just a little off and on opening, when break line gets loaded, toggle simply was pulled out of the keepers. Replacing risers would solve this issue, but I think he simply put those keepers in a right place.

[Snowflake 0]

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I had a discussion with Billy Weber today. Back in the 80’s when Billy and Jake Brake were running the rigger facility at Z Hills, they decided to start keeping stats on the malfunctions. Since any malfunction required them to inspect both the main and reserve after a cutaway there, they found that half of those chopped mains had 1 toggle out and 1 still set. They also briefed the jumper and got a statement. Though most of the jumpers didn’t admit to setting a brake wrong, most of their observations revealed they had.

Were they Velcro keepers? Is it possible people weren't used to setting brakes back then? Do you even set brakes on a round? I ask the latter because if people weren't in the habit before they upgraded to square. They might forget if their in a rush. Just a thought.

I had riggers look at my keepers. I Put slider bumpers on. When I did replace the risers the Mfg found no apparent problems. I don't know if they put jumps on them to try and determine the problem, but I haven't had a break fire since they were replaced. The guy who bought my container has had no problems either.

[KellyF 16]

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My teammate had several break fires resulted in cutaways, the reason was that toggle keepers on one riser were placed just a little off and on opening, when break line gets loaded, toggle simply was pulled out of the keepers. Replacing risers would solve this issue, but I think he simply put those keepers in a right place.

It sounds like your team mate was probably stowing his brakes incorrectly. Toggle keeper or not, the brake shoudn't come unstowed when the lines get loaded. I've seen a LOT of people set their brakes ABOVE the ring instead of BELOW the ring. In these cases, the only thing keeping the brakes set is the strength of the toggle keepers, which I've seen ripped off many times. Toggle keepers were originally intended to make it easier to pull the slider past the toggles, and to keep the slider from knocking the tip of the toggle out of the brake setting should it come flying down the lines and get past the links
Oh, and people were pretty much jumping squares in the '80's

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[captain1976 0]

As I recall from the 80's is that the brake system was the same as the velcro system on todays larger risers. Mostly we jumped squares though the majority of reserves were still round.
Further back, there was another method of brake stowing that we first used and it was some kind of knot or a series of knots which could only be undone by pulling on the toggle (maybe someone can enlighten me on that).
l don't remember what it was called and I probably couldn't tie that knot today, but we all used it and I don't recall any mishaps.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[JumpRu 14]

No…he is very experienced skydiver and he was doing everything right. It just that over the years he had 3 cutaways all from break fire (he is jumping loaded elliptical, so it is not like you have an option to just pop the breaks, once it start spinning there is not much you can do). All those were on the same side. Apparently toggle keeper was put too far from the guide ring (or maybe too close, I can’t remember) and the opening shock was pulling toggle out of the keeper every once in a while.
I’ve never seen anything like this before… might be useful to somebody.

[riggerpaul 1]

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As I recall from the 80's is that the brake system was the same as the velcro system on todays larger risers. Mostly we jumped squares though the majority of reserves were still round.
Further back, there was another method of brake stowing that we first used and it was some kind of knot or a series of knots which could only be undone by pulling on the toggle (maybe someone can enlighten me on that).
l don't remember what it was called and I probably couldn't tie that knot today, but we all used it and I don't recall any mishaps.

Before we started putting the toggle through the eye on the brake line, we pulled the eye down to the guide ring, and daisy-chained the line that was below the guide ring starting by pushing a bight through the eye. From there, you just kept daisy chaining until all the slack below the guide ring was taken up.

If the text explanation is not clear enough, I can set one up and post a picture if you like.

[riggerpaul 1]

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No…he is very experienced skydiver and he was doing everything right. It just that over the years he had 3 cutaways all from break fire (he is jumping loaded elliptical, so it is not like you have an option to just pop the breaks, once it start spinning there is not much you can do). All those were on the same side. Apparently toggle keeper was put too far from the guide ring (or maybe too close, I can’t remember) and the opening shock was pulling toggle out of the keeper every once in a while.
I’ve never seen anything like this before… might be useful to somebody.

Like Kelly, I have lots of jumps on risers that had no keepers, and the hard tab of the toggle didn't come out of the eye. This included the hardest of openings, so I am skeptical that the opening shock itself is what caused the premature toggle release.

I wonder if the key to the problem was the introduction of skinny Type 17 risers.

When all the risers used fat Type 8 webbing, the slider did not come down past the links.

When the mini-risers showed up, we could now have sliders that didn't stop at the links, and sometimes they would push the toggle's hard tab out of the eye, or perhaps the slider can simply pull the toggle free when it goes past the rest of the toggle.

So, had your friend's slider come down past the links on the jumps where he had premature toggle releases?

[flydog 0]

The way I read it was that the toggle retainer for lack of a better term was mislocated. The keeper you refer to is th top elastic. The retainer as I call it is the bottom elastic on such as a wings and a pin slot on vector 3's. If this is too low you can put everything together albeit with some slack in the riser. Upon opening shock the slack is taken up and if far enough off the toggle could be pulled enough to get it below the ring allowing the eye to come off.

[riggerpaul 1]

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The way I read it was that the toggle retainer for lack of a better term was mislocated. The keeper you refer to is th top elastic. The retainer as I call it is the bottom elastic on such as a wings and a pin slot on vector 3's. If this is too low you can put everything together albeit with some slack in the riser. Upon opening shock the slack is taken up and if far enough off the toggle could be pulled enough to get it below the ring allowing the eye to come off.

Actually, I was more remarking on JumpRu's mention of opening shock causing a premature brake release.

You are right that the OP's problem didn't mention that.

The OP mentioned many times seeing the bottom out on opening without resulting in a premature brake release.

So I still wonder what makes his instances of premature brake release different.

If it was simply that the position of the bottom keeper was wrong, wouldn't that tend to cause a premature brake release more often?

Maybe it is a combination of the bottom keeper being wrong, and the slider then being able to knock the toggle off the rest of the way.

But it didn't sound to me like it is simply that the bottom is pulling the top free of the deployment brake eye.

With respect to JumpRu's mention of opening shock, I still don't think that's really coming into play.

[captain1976 0]

Thanks for the memories Paul. Its been a long time since I did that and I think it was with the Strato Star.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[JumpRu 14]

in my case that was "home made" elastic keeper... top one (the one closer to the slinks). We set the breaks on that riser and pulled its ends apart really fast (sort of like canopy opens up) toggle flew out of the keeper and out of cat eye.
I don't think any of it could happen on new factory made risers, but some people still use old ones with home made improvements.
was that a reason of those break fires? I don’t know for sure. I think it may be, because cat eye only locks the break when break line is loaded.