Pencil Packers..Something to think about

[riggergreg 0]

If you sign your riggers name and certificate number to a packing data card, which by the way, is a federal document, the rigger could probably file criminal charges for forgery and possibly ID theft against you.

Just something to think about....

Discuss

[peek 20]

Of course, the deed would need to be proven. Perhaps that is why we have not (have we?) heard of any rigger doing that. How would it be proven beyond doubt?

[billvon 2,394]

>If you sign your riggers name and certificate number to a packing data card,
>which by the way, is a federal document, the rigger could probably file criminal
>charges for forgery and possibly ID theft against you.

Which is why it's best to use an entirely new card with your own name/SS# on it if you feel you must pencil pack. That way, if you go in, there is no question over whose fault it was, and your rigger is not in the hot seat due to your laziness.

[D22369 0]

Only time I can think that the document would be scrutinized to the level to detect the forgery would be after a fatality and at that time being sued isnt an issue unless you loaned the rig to someone else and they bounced - then your probably in deep shit.
The riggers logs would show when and where the IAR occured so the rigger would be off the hook unless it could be proved that he had knowledge that you were pencil packing it.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[riggergreg 0]

OK, Situation that "might" piss a rigger off enough to file charges.

I get in a rig that I packed in October last year. Shows another rigger packed it in Feruary of this year. I open it up to find my pack job still in it. Would you be pissed if a rig owner signed your name to someone elses pack job?

I think the reason the owner used this riggers name/# was because he didn't use a stamp.(easier to copy). Myself and another rigger in the area both use a stamp. Also, there was no seal when I recieved it. Hmmm

So, if something should happen, Guess who gets the first call and has to prove he did not pack the gear the last time?

Just trying to make folks realize the problems they could cause, trying to save the cost of a repack.

[councilman24 36]

I had one guy who bragged he could sign my name better than I could.

One of his friends brought me his rig to pack, no card.
"Bruce, where's the packing data card?"

"What's a packing data card?"

"You know, that card you have to show at boogies?"

"I don't know what your talking about?"

Okay, new card.

Comes back 6 months later, no card.

"Bruce, where's the packing data card?"

"What card?"

Packed, told him never to come back. I had about 4 or 5 ex-customers that I had copies of their forged cards.

I started numbering my pack jobs on the card and in my log so I could more easily show that it wasn't my signature. "No pack job number xxxx was this one, not that one."

It's almost impossible to prove who did it, especially by the time you see it.

I always told people if they were going to pencil pack make up a name. Nobody would know. But if you forge my name your an ex customer.

But it's not just skydivers. I got a pilot rig this year last signed off by a rigger that still had the seal on it from the rigger before him. Too lazy to even change the seal.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[RIGGER 0]

One way to protect yourself & also keep records for recovering lost cards is to take a digital photo at 2 steps:

1.Before folding the reserve into free bag take a photo of the label & if this is a canopy with history marking boxes like the PR's - mark the box with / or X & the month & year like 09/09 or with the X in between the X legs - AFTER marking take a good photo with all details = full label - sharp & clear.
If it is only label without history boxes - photo the label as is - the photo details shows date & time which will match the card you will sign.

2.After filling the packing card take a photo of card at all sides.

*** Date & time info. on your digital camera must be current at yor area.

Keep it on your computer & also back it up.

You got 2 points:
1.Last time you I&R the reserve & when you sign the card.
2.If the card get lost you can recover it based on the photo or if your customer lost the card at a different DZ / Area you can e-mail / Fax it to him & save him / her a repack.

I'm working like that for years including inspections, repacks & repairs of all kinds.

*** Even main repairs records are not mandatory by the FAA - it is smarter to keep the records same you do with reserves + photos - you never know when you need it.

Also it is a nice way to keep your work for the old age history.

Think about - maybe some more office work but the benifit is great from all points of view.

Safe Rigging !!!

[diablopilot 2]

I like your idea.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

Every rig I repacked came with 2 copies of this form. One copy went to the customer the other copy was scanned into my computer and the hard copy filed.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bigway 4]

Quote

OK, Situation that "might" piss a rigger off enough to file charges.

I get in a rig that I packed in October last year. Shows another rigger packed it in Feruary of this year. I open it up to find my pack job still in it. Would you be pissed if a rig owner signed your name to someone elses pack job?

I think the reason the owner used this riggers name/# was because he didn't use a stamp.(easier to copy). Myself and another rigger in the area both use a stamp. Also, there was no seal when I recieved it. Hmmm

So, if something should happen, Guess who gets the first call and has to prove he did not pack the gear the last time?

Just trying to make folks realize the problems they could cause, trying to save the cost of a repack.

You should press charges. make an example. If someone forged my name for anything, it is 'ripping me off'
Most people that cross the line once will always go back and cross the line again and more than likely inffluence others to do the same thing, most likely he has friends who also have the same person using your signature.

Press charges. I dont give a shit if this is skydiving or not, that is someone fucking with your life. UNless of course they have sat down and debated the situation like we are here for hours on end and lots of valuable opinions etc etc etc and everyone came to an educated conclusion that it is not a big deal. Fuck that, take the prick to the courts and put his future on the line like he has so easily done to you. I bet the person who did it does not know the full implications and possible scenarios it could present to you and your family if there was ever a time that reserve pack was questioned. At the very least it would cost you money in court fees or legal advise ect.

Burn the prick.


I am sick to death of people ripping me off this year, it has happened in the sport and out of the sport and i feel for the next wanker that does anything to violate my families future.


Rant over.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bigway 4]

You know it would not take much for a person to design a 'riggers data base', like checking to see if someone has membership on the computer. What about a rigger starts a data base and hopefully as many riggers as possible will join in. After each job you upload a scanned or photo of the packing card how you left it or at least just the date, time and name and number etc. Just something that you can easily check when your gear is being inspected at a dropzone.

There may already be alot of rules and regulations but maybe there are not enough protecting the rigger.

It would not be much extra work and Im sure alot of you riggers would welcome it. Just an extra few minutes to your day to protect yourselves.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[DBCOOPER 1]

Quote

...The riggers logs would show when and where the IAR occured so the rigger would be off the hook Roy

Has there ever been a rigger on the "hook" for someone pencil packing?

Replying to: Re: Stall On Jump Run Emergency Procedure? by billvon

If the plane is unrecoverable then exiting is a very very good idea.

[billvon 2,394]

>You should press charges. make an example. If someone forged my name for
>anything, it is 'ripping me off'

What would you charge them with? Libel? "Ripping someone off" is not a crime; stealing or fraud is.

[bigway 4]

Fraud.
Sorry, I consider someone using my name ripping me off.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[captain1976 0]

I doubt that any prosecutor would file charges for something like that, however a formal complaint to the FAA requires that they investigate it. This would indeed lead to some kind of consequences. I would imagine a fine along with certificate action if the owner of the gear had any airman certificates.
The penalty for making a false entry on aircraft logs is a felony punishable by up to 5 years for each false entry made. I haven't read the actual laws lately which are in the FAR's but I'm sure in keeping with their wording that it would apply in cases of any documentation that was fraudulent.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[billvon 2,394]

>I would imagine a fine along with certificate action if the owner of the gear
>had any airman certificates.

Right, and that's the rub. Skydivers are (mostly) non-certificated so any action has to go through civil courts - which makes it hard enough that, most times, the FAA doesn't bother. They generally have enough on their plate that they won't go very far to pursue victimless crimes in civil court.

[hackish 8]

Quote

You know it would not take much for a person to design a 'riggers data base', like checking to see if someone has membership on the computer.

I looked into that sometime ago but I found that it would be very difficult with Canada's privacy laws. There are computer geek ways one could generate a verification number for every packjob - date plus rigger's number plus a secret passcode through a 1 way hash but that's too much effort spent on something that hasn't been killing people.

On the subject of pencil packing, sometimes people say they can recognize their own packjob. When I open one I always look at it very closely - sometimes even measure where the S folds were made. If it's a really nice packjob then I do my darnest to copy it!

On thing I found once was a small 3 hole punch sized piece of paper with the date and rigger's seal on it. It was inside the packjob. From a technical point of view it would never affect the airworthness or opening of the packjob but would be a far more effective way to show a packjob was yours.

-Michael

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

On thing I found once was a small 3 hole punch sized piece of paper with the date and rigger's seal on it. It was inside the packjob. From a technical point of view it would never affect the airworthness or opening of the packjob but would be a far more effective way to show a packjob was yours.

-Michael

If the point is to protect oneself from liability for the guy who dies after his pencil pack, then I don't see where that piece of paper would really help much.

Wouldn't that piece of paper likely be gone by the time he gets to the ground in what would likely be a violent event?

What that piece of paper would do is to help the next rigger notice that the rig had been pencil packed, but as others have mentioned, there's not really much consequence to that, as it is 1) an essentially victimless crime, and 2) unprovable for lack of physical evidence.

If we really wanted to deal with the pencil pack question and other questions too, all we really need is a pocket inside the reserve container for the packing data card. This would also go a long way to solving the issue of "lost" cards as well. The card that is accessible to the jumper really only needs to show who repacked it the last time and when. The external card is mostly to show the manifest desk that the rig is current. They don't really look to see that every SB was applied, for instance. That's something that the riggers do. Having the real history of the rig inside in a protected place would solve most of the clerical questions that we seem to want solved.

But really, we have other questions that are more important. For example, if you really want to keep an accurate history of the rig, you need a log for the h/c, another log for the canopy, and probably a third log for the AAD. These components can and do get moved around so that a single history is grossly inadequate in the first place.

[riggerrob 558]

" ... all we really need is a pocket inside the reserve container for the packing data card. ..."

......................................................................

Most military rigs and Vectors have a second pocket (for a second reserve packing data card) inside the reserve container where it can only be accessed after breaking the seal, opening the container, etc.

All modern (built during last 15 years) skydiving rigs also have an internal pocket for the Cypres battery box, so that would be another convenient place to hide a second packing data card, maybe just the rigger's business card with a date stamp???.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

" ... all we really need is a pocket inside the reserve container for the packing data card. ..."

......................................................................

Most military rigs and Vectors have a second pocket (for a second reserve packing data card) inside the reserve container where it can only be accessed after breaking the seal, opening the container, etc.

All modern (built during last 15 years) skydiving rigs also have an internal pocket for the Cypres battery box, so that would be another convenient place to hide a second packing data card, maybe just the rigger's business card with a date stamp???.

Doh! (ala Homer Simpson)

The AAD pocket - of course! You could also use the pocket under the stiffener plate at the bottom of the closing loop on many rigs.

That's certainly good enough for a start.

I'd still prefer a separate purpose-specific pocket to help ensure the documents don't get destroyed by whatever else the pocket was really for.

(Where's the extra pocket on a Vector? I don't think I've ever noticed it, and I have even assembled some SOV rigs a while back.)

But what is really needed, if we really want to go there, is a true commitment to having good records in the first place. All the rest would easily follow. That would require separate logs for separate components, just like airplanes have separate logs for airframes and powerplants.

The ability to lose a card and quickly whip up a new one with little or no consequence totally defeats all effort to the contrary.

But we're getting quite far from the original discussion of this thread. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack it.

[fcajump 153]

Quote

Quote

" ... all we really need is a pocket inside the reserve container for the packing data card. ..."

......................................................................

Most military rigs and Vectors have a second pocket (for a second reserve packing data card) inside the reserve container where it can only be accessed after breaking the seal, opening the container, etc.

All modern (built during last 15 years) skydiving rigs also have an internal pocket for the Cypres battery box, so that would be another convenient place to hide a second packing data card, maybe just the rigger's business card with a date stamp???.

Doh! (ala Homer Simpson)

The AAD pocket - of course! You could also use the pocket under the stiffener plate at the bottom of the closing loop on many rigs.

That's certainly good enough for a start.

I'd still prefer a separate purpose-specific pocket to help ensure the documents don't get destroyed by whatever else the pocket was really for.

(Where's the extra pocket on a Vector? I don't think I've ever noticed it, and I have even assembled some SOV rigs a while back.)

But what is really needed, if we really want to go there, is a true commitment to having good records in the first place. All the rest would easily follow. That would require separate logs for separate components, just like airplanes have separate logs for airframes and powerplants.

The ability to lose a card and quickly whip up a new one with little or no consequence totally defeats all effort to the contrary.

But we're getting quite far from the original discussion of this thread. Sorry, I don't mean to hijack it.

Component records - I like it, though we'd at least have to grandfather in the current gear.

How about a clear pocket, accessible only from the inside of the reserve container through which you could see the TSO limits, owner information and pack data card. (Actually as I recall Sandy Reed was looking at something similar to store limit placards that could be changed when the canopies were swapped out.)

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Rob,

Quote

Vectors have a second pocket (for a second reserve packing data card maybe ) inside the reserve container where it can only be accessed after breaking the seal, opening the container, etc.

This internal packing data card pocket is a req'ment in TSO C23(b) [ which is the TSO for the Vector ].

This req'ment was removed with TSO C23(c); I know as I was on the committee back then.

The arguement presented was because NO ONE ever put a Packing Data Card into the inside pocket. And the FARs were not specific in having to do this. Ergo, since no one is doing it why not eliminate it.

Just a little something for you trivia types . . .

JerryBaumchen

PS) In 44 yrs of being a rigger I have NEVER put a Packing Data Card into the inside pocket.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

This internal packing data card pocket is a req'ment in TSO C23(b) [ which is the TSO for the Vector ].

This req'ment was removed with TSO C23(c); I know as I was on the committee back then.

It was a carry over from the military which required both pockets.

---

NATIONAL AIRCRAFT STANDARDS COMMITTEE

NAS 804

4.2.2 Inspection Data Pocket: Each parachute outfit shall be provided
with an inner and an outer pocket for keeping a record card
containing space for recording the date of repacking or repair
and the rigger’s name and serial number. The inner pocket
shall be located in the center of the packed container, tray
or frame and the outer pocket placed externally in an easily
accessible position. If the inner record card can be read
from the outside of the pack because of the use of transparent
materials, only the inner pocket need be provided.

---

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,047]

Hi Michael,

Re: In 44 yrs of being a rigger I have NEVER put a Packing Data Card into the inside pocket.

You aren't going to rat me out are you?

JerryBaumchen