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labrys 0
QuoteSo, do think a jump pilot has a reason to be angry when a Tandem instructor does something like this?
I'm not a tandem instructor so I can't make any valid comments about the technical aspects of that video.
I don't know the history you guys have and I'm well aware that there are 2 sides to most stories so I can't make any valid comments about who is in the wrong in the real world.
But in the Internet world in which you've chosen to air your dispute, Gary, you come across as a bit of a cad. You may have a valid arguement with this guy, but the way you've presented this comes across as petty and juvenile.
The TI you have a problem with comes across as reasonable and humble. You're really making yourself look foolish in this thread.
Owned by Remi #?
QuoteBTW, if want to know a bit more about that "relationship between the parties", give me a call. (800) 435-1975
If you're not willing to state it publicly after trying to complete a character assignation of one of your S&TA's then its not worth the phone call. As with the last few times I've called you, it was a complete waste of my time.
QuoteNow, back to the discussion on safety and training, eh?
Which would be a USPA BOD airing his dirty laundry in a public forum? Way to represent a "positive" image of the BOD after all its has gone through the past 9 months.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
jdthomas 0
Quote
As far as rigging is concerned, I’ll have to agree the spandex pouches are looking a little long in the tooth on a few of our rigs. It hadn’t been an issue when we jumped a Caravan on a bench with minimal movement of the instructor and student. We recently moved back to a 182 and 206 where there is a lot more scooting around and chances to push on the drogue. It’s an issue I’ve raised with the DZO and after seeing the aftermath of a loose drogue I’m sure there’s going to be some sewing going on. Student gear takes a real beating compared to the regular gear. A more critical eye is needed when inspecting the high use and wear areas.
If the spandex is showing wear enough that there may be concern or needs to be fixed then why is it being jumped? your own statement of "A more critical eye is needed when inspectiing the high use and wear areas." kind of bothers me.. are you saying that your eye is not critical enough to discover any issues or are you saying that you have a critical eye for these issues yet still jumped a rig that obviously allowed the drouge to come out of it's pouch.
I am not trying to be critical of your chocie to jump in the video sitiuation as i think I would have gotten out of the aircraft as well just asking that if the gear is an issue then why was it being jumped? what is the motive? Money? why not delay the jump until the gear is serviced and make things safer for all involved.
I have often seen pressuers from DZO's to jump, and understand that if a person is a DZ worker he can be torn between two worlds, one of wanting to please the customer and dzo and make money for himself.. I am NOT saying this is an issue here but have seen corners cut in the past to make a jump on gear that may have been out of date or not is the best of condition. statements like oh we will fix it this week it will be fine for a few more jumps have no place in this activity. once again NOT saying that was the case here. I just wonder the motive to jump gear that needs serviced or is sloppy in it's pack job.
www.greenboxphotography.com
Someone posted you have a 206 as well as the 182.
If it is a U model then you and the DZO should consider never doing tandems out of the 182 with a 6' 2" TI.
If it is a U model then you and the DZO should consider never doing tandems out of the 182 with a 6' 2" TI.
Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
jumper03 0
QuoteDave, I was waiting for that post. It is composed exactly as I expected. Thank you. (I just don't know what took you so long.) Now, back to the discussion on safety and training, eh?
BTW, if want to know a bit more about that "relationship between the parties", give me a call. (800) 435-1975
so you knew this would be said and you posted anyway? I gotta agree with Dave on this one.
Scars remind us that the past is real
peek 20
Quoteso you knew this would be said and you posted anyway?
Not anything about the original post. I knew that Dave would eventually find some reason to find fault with what I did, but that's OK, he can do that, I'm a big boy, and I am confident of my original intent.
I was actually amazed when he made his original post, which is the second post in this thread. It was the kind of good information I was looking for and the reason I made the post!
QuoteIf the spandex is showing wear enough that there may be concern or needs to be fixed then why is it being jumped? ....why not delay the jump until the gear is serviced and make things safer for all involved.
I have often seen pressuers from DZO's to jump, and understand that if a person is a DZ worker he can be torn between two worlds, one of wanting to please the customer and dzo and make money for himself.. I am NOT saying this is an issue here but have seen corners cut in the past to make a jump on gear that may have been out of date or not is the best of condition. statements like oh we will fix it this week it will be fine for a few more jumps have no place in this activity.
In my skydiving career this is my fifth drop zone and the third I've worked at, one I even managed. I do understand your concern about DZO’s and gear maintenance compromises. I can assure you it wasn’t a factor in this incident as I know I pulled the drogue out moving in the aircraft. I had really shoved myself in the corner to assist my student turning in the aircraft, far more so than on any other tandem I’ve done. This was the rookie mistake of not protecting my handles while moving around the aircraft. A loose spandex pocket probably would have made it possible for me to shove everything back in properly, not that it would have been proper to do so. But as I said before events have made everyone take an extra hard look at gear and procedures at all levels.
It is always good to review all parts of the process when trying to figure out why something happened, no matter how unrelated. That’s why I’m happy this discussion has remained open. Sadly, it often takes an out of the ordinary event to shock everyone into discussing how things are done. You can become complacent when everything goes off without a hitch weekend after weekend.
That applies to many parts of life, not just skydiving.
QuoteI knew that Dave would eventually find some reason to find fault with what I did
So why does Dave get singled out here when there are others who have replied with the same general opinion? It must be obvious to you that the list of those who don't approve of your method of handling this situation is longer than his name alone.
Is this another personality conflict making its way into the forums? If so, I will restate my comment from yesterday: using the forums to leverage your personal differences with others is a definite no-go. And so I am clear that I am NOT singling you out here, that comment applies to all parties in any personality conflict.
We learn from respectful and intelligent discussions of inceidents and their outcome; we learn nothing from DZ politics or individual soap operas.
Arrive Safely
John
John
peek 20
QuoteIs this another personality conflict making its way into the forums?
Yes it is. I must state that when attacked I will defend myself (trying desperatetly to not attack back). This is why I have invited Dave to call me, so we can avoid the public exchange. If you to lock the thread I understand completely.
If you want to call me about this too, by all means please do. It will be an eye-opener.
I am hesitant to lock the thread because it does not give those who you have drug into the open to duke it out with any opportunity to provide factual comments (without perpetuating the dogfight). The end result would be an exposure of individuals in public and a retreat into private communication to finish the matter. This is like a politician making offensive comments in the international media and then later making an apology, but only on their website.
Locking the thread also results in a loss of the benefit of discussing the incident from a safety/training/maintenance standpoint. For now it continues.
I will decline your invitation for a phone conversation. Other than a couple of short chats at PIA Symposiums I do not really know you, nor am I a skydiver in your USPA region. In this case it is best if our conversation remains in this venue so it does not become personal for me as well, which would make it very difficult for me to moderate threads like this one objectively.
Locking the thread also results in a loss of the benefit of discussing the incident from a safety/training/maintenance standpoint. For now it continues.
I will decline your invitation for a phone conversation. Other than a couple of short chats at PIA Symposiums I do not really know you, nor am I a skydiver in your USPA region. In this case it is best if our conversation remains in this venue so it does not become personal for me as well, which would make it very difficult for me to moderate threads like this one objectively.
Arrive Safely
John
John
Can't we split all the hair pulling to another thread? It serves no purpose in Safety & Training.
The "hair pulling" as you call it is happening because the OP chose to out this incident the way he did fueled by personal agenda. Once the parties concerned have posted any relevant and factual comments to provide context from their side of the issue this flavor of conversation needs to stop completely. It doesn't need another thread, it just needs to be taken to private means of communication. Then we can continue with whatever learning we can glean from the incident.
Arrive Safely
John
John
Quote
I do understand your concern about DZO’s and gear maintenance compromises. I can assure you it wasn’t a factor in this incident as I know I pulled the drogue out moving in the aircraft. I had really shoved myself in the corner to assist my student turning in the aircraft, far more so than on any other tandem I’ve done. This was the rookie mistake of not protecting my handles while moving around the aircraft. (snip)But as I said before events have made everyone take an extra hard look at gear and procedures at all levels.
(snip)
It is always good to review all parts of the process when trying to figure out why something happened, no matter how unrelated.
Further what Riggerrob said, I really think you need to review the process of turning yourself and the passenger while on your butt. Either turn on your knees or don't turn. Rob and I have done hundreds of tandems sharing a 182 and neither of us ever turn in the aircraft. From the sitting position/old man seat it is easy to lift your butt up to protect the drogue while you slide over to the right side, and then back to the doorway. It is a bit more work to get the passenger's first leg out, but I have managed with some pretty large people over the years.
billvon 2,384
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>I had the videographer reach over us and put the drogue back in the pocket.
This is an interesting point. This has happened to me a few times - something was wrong back there and another TM helped me fix it. Once it was a drouge too far out, once it was a 'missing cable' (only one drouge release cable visible) once it was a suspiciously well tucked in top flap. Anyone who has jumped older Strong systems knows how a loose top flap is by far the norm.
In all cases, another TM helped me fix it, and I assumed that he had done it correctly; I never once thought "well, if I can't check it myself maybe I should land with the plane." This is definitely an eye opener in that regard.
Taking a wider view, I guess it comes down to "do you trust the guy doing gear checks/fixing minor problems?"
This is an interesting point. This has happened to me a few times - something was wrong back there and another TM helped me fix it. Once it was a drouge too far out, once it was a 'missing cable' (only one drouge release cable visible) once it was a suspiciously well tucked in top flap. Anyone who has jumped older Strong systems knows how a loose top flap is by far the norm.
In all cases, another TM helped me fix it, and I assumed that he had done it correctly; I never once thought "well, if I can't check it myself maybe I should land with the plane." This is definitely an eye opener in that regard.
Taking a wider view, I guess it comes down to "do you trust the guy doing gear checks/fixing minor problems?"
QuoteFurther what Riggerrob said, I really think you need to review the process of turning yourself and the passenger while on your butt. Either turn on your knees or don't turn.
Point taken, I really don't move in the aircraft other than to exit. This was an unusual case where the students age and lack of flexibility had me moving to help him. This was outside of my normal routine and I didn't properly protect the drogue handle.
jdthomas 0
Quote[
. I do understand your concern about DZO’s and gear maintenance compromises. I can assure you it wasn’t a factor in this incident as I know I pulled the drogue out moving in the aircraft. reply]
But you had stated the spandex was loose and there was to be some sewing going on, now I read that you are saying you caused the problem and that it was because you where dragging yourself in the plane. was it both? you also state that this dragging was out of the norm for you. these are all signs that lead to the failure of the system, we see it time and time again in these forums. break one link in the chian it it all fails has been beaten in to our heads and yet we still see it every week here.
So are you going to start exiting diffrently or still drag your butt on the floor? what has been the lesson and what would you share with others?
I understand that we want to accomadate each passenger, make the jump comfortable and fun, yet we often over look safety int eh process. I will tell you that I did not break my normal routine and just said to the passenger i am sorry this is uncomfortable but this is the method that is safe for us and we will only be uncomfortable for a moment.
I always sat on my knees in the cessna, this gave me the abaility to check my gear and protect my handles and I see many other TMs here echo the same thoughts.
At the end of a long tandem day it may be appealing to sit and relax but I would say that being on your knees is a well worth not going through a loose drouge.
Note to add to the conflicts within the post, I am not sure that gary ever named who the TM was and no one would have known if the TM had not come on here to say it was himself.
I applaud the TM for defending his position, but we would have never know it was you or gary flying the plane if you had not stated so. to the original post we would have seen it as a learning experience without the verbal exchanges between the partys.
best of luck to you and may this never happen to you or anyone again.
Joewww.greenboxphotography.com
In our current society we have fallen into a pattern of refusal in many cases to accept responsibility for our actions.
It appears to become easier to remove or minimize blame with involvement of other actions or persons.
Every person on every lift has a spacific job to perform and responsibilites to all others involved.
Do we make mistakes, or poor decisions in judgement? Yes it starts every day when we rise from sleep, The difference as people than only exists in how we as individules except responsibility for these actions.
Unfortunately I read on these threads, how blame and responsibility, for poor decisions, is constnatly skillfully manipulated to devert blame and distort the truth of responsibility. Also it is equally easy to see others chime in on the side of distortion in an effort to make themselves feel less responsible for the same actions taken by themselves in prior events.
You want my help? You want my respect? Than stand and except the critisizem that comes from failure, Place no responsibility or blame on any other person or action, strive to learn from this failure and take action to remove it as a possibility in the future! This a person whom deserves consideration and respect!
There are only 2 neutral colors in the laws of life! Black and White, Right and Wrong! If you choose to believe that you can contrive and deceive hiding in the Gray areas that you create, the deception only exists to hide yourself from responsibility.
Sure all situations can be handled better "After the fact" I approach problems this way, If you slide in my rig and grass stain it! I will not be pleased but will calmly inform you to clean it. If you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw.
Tom
It appears to become easier to remove or minimize blame with involvement of other actions or persons.
Every person on every lift has a spacific job to perform and responsibilites to all others involved.
Do we make mistakes, or poor decisions in judgement? Yes it starts every day when we rise from sleep, The difference as people than only exists in how we as individules except responsibility for these actions.
Unfortunately I read on these threads, how blame and responsibility, for poor decisions, is constnatly skillfully manipulated to devert blame and distort the truth of responsibility. Also it is equally easy to see others chime in on the side of distortion in an effort to make themselves feel less responsible for the same actions taken by themselves in prior events.
You want my help? You want my respect? Than stand and except the critisizem that comes from failure, Place no responsibility or blame on any other person or action, strive to learn from this failure and take action to remove it as a possibility in the future! This a person whom deserves consideration and respect!
There are only 2 neutral colors in the laws of life! Black and White, Right and Wrong! If you choose to believe that you can contrive and deceive hiding in the Gray areas that you create, the deception only exists to hide yourself from responsibility.
Sure all situations can be handled better "After the fact" I approach problems this way, If you slide in my rig and grass stain it! I will not be pleased but will calmly inform you to clean it. If you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw.
Tom
If you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw.
Quote
Amen!
Which is a point that I think needs to be spotlighted for a moment.
This was/is a situation that very well could have been written up in a fatality report, with loss of the airraft as well as loss of life on the ground.
There seems to be some finger pointing at Gary for the way he choose to bring this almost disaster to light...if you will re-read his 1st post there is nothing in there about his being the pilot or negative remarks regarding the TM...only a "do you think...angry" with plenty of room for discussion.
Would I be angry? HELL YES!
In fact I take my hat off to the pilot for NOT taking it up a notch. I most likly would have, if my past reaction to similar situations is any indicator.
I've known Gary for a long time and his dedication and professionalism are in my opnion beyond reproach.
I don't know the TM, but his up-front explaination of what happened ~ how and why he reacted ~ what he would do next time...seem to me to show he also has some professionalism and fully, a 100% understanding of the incident in question, taking full responcibility etc.
If there is a personality conflict between them, so be it...I too get a bit torqued when MY safety is rocked by someone else...I contend we use this forum and incedents like this to our advantage, and learn from it.
~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~
I publicly decline to call you and I publicly decline to reply to your PM. What ever your problem with me is you can state it openly. I have publicly stated my concerns in your actions as a jumper, instructor and a BOD member.
Now I will wait for the behind the back grudge holding and retaliation that it seems you are doing to this jumper, to be done to me. I'm very glad I'm not a jumper in your region or I would be concerned about unfounded USPA actions against me so you could settle your apparent grudge.
Now I will wait for the behind the back grudge holding and retaliation that it seems you are doing to this jumper, to be done to me. I'm very glad I'm not a jumper in your region or I would be concerned about unfounded USPA actions against me so you could settle your apparent grudge.
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."
peek 20
Dave, I don't have a problem with you. If I did, why would I want to talk to you? I'm curious about you. I'll just ask Todd.
feuergnom 22
QuoteIf you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw.
then you have to use your fists every other day - cause there are tons of people who "jepordize" your life on your way to work, on your way to the dz etc
QuoteThere are only 2 neutral colors in the laws of life! Black and White, Right and Wrong
a classic line suited perfectly for speakers corner
as for the original discussion, the lesson should be clear:
#) protect your handles
#) in the case of a not so flexible passenger, try to rehearse/train the exit while still on the ground
would i have jumped in the given situation? honestly i don't know. if i am already out of the doors with my passenger and nobody being in the plane except the pilot and i realise my drogue is on the loose - probably yes. because i think the chance of the drogue getting blown out of the door (with me following) while trying to climb back is bigger than loosing the drogue out of my hand on exit
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle
dudeist skydiver # 666
dudeist skydiver # 666
QuoteQuoteIf you jepordize my life I will very firmly brake your fucking jaw.
then you have to use your fists every other day - cause there are tons of people who "jepordize" your life on your way to work, on your way to the dz etc
Yes! On some days I find the need to brake more jaws than others, Kind of look at it as an entertaining past time.QuoteThere are only 2 neutral colors in the laws of life! Black and White, Right and Wrong
a classic line suited perfectly for speakers corner
If speakers conrner lines was applied to the threads on Safety and Training more often, we might see less fuckups!
Bottom line no one was injured! I think everyone has a new understanding and repect for the TM and Pilot position. We should see less or none of these types of concerns in the future!!!
Well, you won't get my vote.
Interesting discussion despite the histrionics.
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