Do think a jump pilot has a reason to be angry when this happens?

[davelepka 4]

It didn't look pretty, but I think you did the right thing. You clearly had a handful of drouge as you left the plane, and that was the only safe way to clear the aircraft.

For those reading those who are not TI's, or who have not had the pleasure of packing tandems, drouges are huge. Between the drouge and the drouge bridle, there is alot of stuff jammed into the pouch. You could have what appears to be a good amount of fabric outside the pouch, and still have half, or more, of the drouge still in the pouch.

[feuergnom 22]

given the video and the account the TI in question posted I think the TI has a reason to be angry

to the posters jumping so easily on the bash-the-guilty-train: i hope you will always stay above things, you will never have a bad day and that everythings works like planned and trained as long as you jump

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[peek 20]

Please allow me to elaborate on the following comment in my second post in this thread: "A few weeks ago I saw several inches of drogue bridle hanging out before he boarded the same plane."

Not only was the drogue bridle hanging out, but he had a flippant attitude about it when I suggested that he check it and tuck it in.

[feuergnom 22]

and the appropriate way to deal with this situation is to invite anybody sitting in front of a computer to join a flame fest?

i think there are better ways to educate people on possible or on already existing scenarios. and for the record: no, I am not being p.c. here.

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[flyhi 24]

Similar setup, different result.

Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

[peek 20]

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and the appropriate way to deal with this situation is to invite anybody sitting in front of a computer to join a flame fest?

Actually I haven't see a lot of flames. But I have seen some unexpected good advice from some very experienced instructors.

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I think there are better ways to educate people...

I know, but I tried. It didn't work.

[councilman24 36]

Okay, WHY didn't you abort the jump and land with the plane? Have you ever? Will you next time? Did it ever occur to you to land with the plane or is this post the first time you've admitted that's what you should have done? Would you land with the plane next time or keep going again?

What have YOU learned from this? My guess is that's what Gary would like to know.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[SkydiveMO 0]

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I know, but I tried. It didn't work.

All right Gary, well let me illuminate for you and everyone else here (since you want to do this in public) why you are an ineffective instructor. A real instructor on seeing a fellow tandem instructor with an exposed bridle would have walked up and said “hey man your bridle is hanging out a little, let me tuck that in for you”. I’d be a rich man if I were paid to tuck in drogues and bridles. As we move around or sit in the hangar waiting for aircraft sometimes the drogue gets pulled out a little. Now if I saw a pattern forming with an instructor where his or her drogue was always exposed I would walk up and say “hey man your drogue is out a little let me tuck that in for you and before you go up on the next tandem let me show you how I ensure that this doesn’t happen when I do tandems”. See how that works I’m not being critical I am being supportive and showing a willingness to provide solutions.

Lets take a critical look at how you handle situations. You saw that I had an exposed bridle on one of my many tandems and said that it was dangerous and walked away. Did I seem flippant about this? Hell yeah! I’m wondering well then why don’t you help me frickin’ tuck the thing in? This tandem weighs a ton and last time I checked I couldn’t see my ass without a mirror. Then this situation happens, which I believe was more related to my movement in the aircraft than any bridle or drogue exposure, and yes it was bad. Did you provide helpful advice, which could have been appropriately more critical than the example above, or did you run to a public forum and commence with a public shaming? Now ask yourself if you think I’ll ever consider any instructional advice you give in the future.

To anyone reading this thread think. When you provide advice to a fellow instructor, skydiver, friend, family member, etc. Don’t just be critical, no one gives a flying donut what someone who is always critical has to say. Explain that you feel what they are doing is wrong or how it might not be the best way to go about whatever they are doing. Then provide a solution and if at all possible personal experience you or others have had to support your advice. In skydiving provide assistance in the form of visual training. Last time I checked the point was to watch out for one another.

[SkydiveMO 0]

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Okay, WHY didn't you abort the jump and land with the plane? Have you ever? Will you next time? Did it ever occur to you to land with the plane or is this post the first time you've admitted that's what you should have done? Would you land with the plane next time or keep going again?

Why didn't I abort the jump run. I thought I had put the drouge back in the pocket and we were good to go. Did it occur to me that I could have landed the plane? Yes, had I not thought we were good I wouldn't have gone ahead with things... was it right no, I know that now but hindsight is 20/20.

Have I ever landed with the plane? You bet your ass I have, it wasn't ego or an unwillingness to land, I truly thought we got the drouge back in the pocket. What I proved to myself is that I needed to visually insure that I had and that feeling around was in no way adequate. You can bet it won't happen again.

[peregrinerose 0]

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To anyone reading this thread think. When you provide advice to a fellow instructor, skydiver, friend, family member, etc. Don’t just be critical, no one gives a flying donut what someone who is always critical has to say. Explain that you feel what they are doing is wrong or how it might not be the best way to go about whatever they are doing. Then provide a solution and if at all possible personal experience you or others have had to support your advice. In skydiving provide assistance in the form of visual training. Last time I checked the point was to watch out for one another.

Really well said. Something that a lot of us on here need to remember sometimes. Presentation matters just as much, if not more, than the content of the words.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[peek 20]

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I’d be a rich man if I were paid to tuck in drogues and bridles.

You are paid to tuck in bridles. That is part of a "preflight" inspection of gear. And you are paid very well for it.

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Lets take a critical look at how you handle situations.

Be as critical as you like, I do whatever it takes.

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Now ask yourself if you think I’ll ever consider any instructional advice you give in the future.

I don't expect you to, you know everything.

[beowulf 1]

I think it is really bad form to air this shit out on a public forum. If you have a problem with someone then confront them personally. Doing it online makes you look bad.

[danielcroft 2]

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I think it is really bad form to air this shit out on a public forum. If you have a problem with someone then confront them personally. Doing it online makes you look bad.

+1

I accept the right of response but can we drop this? You guys can mud wrestle in bikinis to sort it out later.

[icevideot 0]

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You are paid to tuck in bridles

It seemed to me he was referring to helping others with their gear and not his own preflight, but you seem intelligent enough to know that.

I agree with the poster who called bad form on this passive aggressive personal attack.

As an instructor dealing with a person you expect to be resistant, cocky, or even just plain arrogant you have to plan ahead. Adopting a similar attitude and spitting advice at them sets you up to be able to say "I told you so" if anything bad ever happens. If anything it only makes it more difficult for future people who actually want to help.

If you know you can't relate to them in a positive manner ask another instructor or knowledgeable person (privately) to take a shot at resolving it.

"If you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem" seems to be true enough in cases like this. I know I don't know the people or actual events here but I am not the one who put this out in the street to begin with.

Good luck and blue skies to everyone on here.

"... this ain't a Nerf world."

[Andy9o8 0]

I can't think of a better time to lock a thread than right now.

[slotperfect 7]

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I can't think of a better time to lock a thread than right now.

We are leaving it up for now:

1) Majority opinion here and among those I have discussed this thread with is that this incident should have been dealt with differently, out of the public eye and among professionals, staff, and leadership at the DZ in question. Airing the incident in this public forum on behalf of the Instructor involved without his knowledge and without all of the facts to provide context unnecessarily put the Instructor under the microscope and opened the OP up for negative fallout for his choice of venue.

2) That being said, now that it is out and the Instructor has had a chance to chime in with background information and his own viewpoint and post-jump actions/lessons learned, locking the thread will only squash his opportunity to continue to explain himself and for the rest of us to benefit by learning from it.

3) There is an obvious personality conflict between the Instructor and the OP that extends well beyond this thread and this incident. Those personal differences need to stay within the confines of personal communication (PMs, email, and such) and stay out of these forums. This is not the place for that.

4) A lot of really good things have been said in this thread, which if removed from the surrounding incident are great tips for any Tandem Instructor. I may pluck them out and list them on their own later on - I see great value in that.

Unless the thread gets out of hand or becomes a dead horse, there is no reason to lock it now.

Arrive Safely

John

[airtwardo 6]

Unless the thread gets out of hand or becomes a dead horse, there is no reason to lock it now.

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Great...let's use this as a learning tool like it was meant to be.

Just wondering, it's been a good ten years since I quit doing Tandems but I don't recall the drouge coming out as easily as seems to be being decribed in this situation.

Could there be a gear maintainance issue that can be addressed to possibly tighten up the pocket a bit?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[Samurai136 0]

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As we move around or sit in the hangar waiting for aircraft sometimes the drogue gets pulled out a little. Now if I saw a pattern forming with an instructor where his or her drogue was always exposed...

Is it a rigging issue? How is the spandex BOC? Is it tight enough to hold the drogue? Is the drogue packed correctly?

In my experience drogues don't just fall out the BOC.

Usually, as part of the pre-flight inspection, I consider the "chain of custody". Who packed the main? Who packed the drogue? Does the packer need re-training? Drogue release assembly? etc...

Everyone knows tandem rigs are heavy. If there is a long wait for the plane (cessna DZ) I wouldn't put on the rig until the plane was on the ground (or on final approach). Assuming the student is trained, geared up and ready; ideally, I want to complete the pre-flight, put on the rig, and board the plane.

Personality conflicts on the DZ are tough. The tandem operation is a team effort (DZO, manifest, packers, instructors, pilots). If I didn't feel the team support was there I would talk to the DZO. Ultimately it is my ass on the line with the student. I wouldn't jump in any scenario that I felt compromised my safety.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Andrewwhyte 1]

I have seen a lot of drogues that stick out of the pocket. This is from the packer packing it too long for the pocket and pushing it down. It looks fine when the packer puts it on the shelf but then expands and starts being exposed. The TM examines the rig, pushes the drogue down and puts it on. By the time he reaches the plane it is out again.

[jdthomas 0]

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Great...let's use this as a learning tool like it was meant to be.

Just wondering, it's been a good ten years since I quit doing Tandems but I don't recall the drouge coming out as easily as seems to be being decribed in this situation.

Could there be a gear maintainance issue that can be addressed to possibly tighten up the pocket a bit?

I as well wonder if this could be a rigging issue, I have done a few tandems myself and never had much if any of a problem with the drouge coming out and I always seemed to be int eh back of the bus squirming my way forward for the jump.
If the pouch spandex is worn then it's somethin that needs be be fixed and not jumped, if the packer is not packing teh drouge correctly then that needs to be resolved and these jumps should not take place.
I have watched the video sevral times and am torn on when I thinkt eh drouge comes out in relationship to the jumpers bodys to the aircraft.. part of me thinks the drouge was loose and known the the TM at a spot when they could have safely come back in the plane, but I am not 100% on that and think if student and I both where out of the door far enough when I realzed the drouge was out i too would have just held it and bailed and figuerd out what to do so this never happens again.
Either way i want to thank Gary and the Tm for posting something we can learn from and that both are willing to still talk about all be it in a limited capacity.
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[SkydiveMO 0]

After the incident the DZO, also a Tandem I/E, reviewed packing procedures for drogues with the packers. I reviewed my actions and the results with the other tandem instructors and the videographer who took the video.

As far as rigging is concerned, I’ll have to agree the spandex pouches are looking a little long in the tooth on a few of our rigs. It hadn’t been an issue when we jumped a Caravan on a bench with minimal movement of the instructor and student. We recently moved back to a 182 and 206 where there is a lot more scooting around and chances to push on the drogue. It’s an issue I’ve raised with the DZO and after seeing the aftermath of a loose drogue I’m sure there’s going to be some sewing going on. Student gear takes a real beating compared to the regular gear. A more critical eye is needed when inspecting the high use and wear areas.

[JohnDeere 0]

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I think it is really bad form to air this shit out on a public forum. If you have a problem with someone then confront them personally. Doing it online makes you look bad.

+2 I think Peek could have handled this differently, but i know no more than is listed here.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[JohnDeere 0]

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To anyone reading this thread think. When you provide advice to a fellow instructor, skydiver, friend, family member, etc. Don’t just be critical, no one gives a flying donut what someone who is always critical has to say. Explain that you feel what they are doing is wrong or how it might not be the best way to go about whatever they are doing. Then provide a solution and if at all possible personal experience you or others have had to support your advice. In skydiving provide assistance in the form of visual training. Last time I checked the point was to watch out for one another.

Really well said. Something that a lot of us on here need to remember sometimes. Presentation matters just as much, if not more, than the content of the words.

I agree very well said. The best teachers are the best listeners, and know how to present the info so it can be learnd.

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[SkydiveMO 0]

I appreciate the support. I’m in no way happy with how Gary chose to address the issue, but it is what it is. As far as I’m concerned it’s a done deal and at this point I don’t think how the issue was raised really matters. Let’s concentrate on what and why things happened and how it could be prevented in the future. I think everyone can agree on that being best.

We all make errors in judgment, sometimes knowingly and other times not understanding the consequences of an action. Knowledge is real power in this sport. It’s impossible to imagine all the scenarios with which you might be faced so learning from others experiences is critical.

[AggieDave 6]

You know, now that I've read the other side of the story and see the relationship between the parties involved, I think you're well out of line for posting here. Especially in the manner you did, leaving out the information that you were the pilot.

This is something that really shows your lack of character.

There are proper ways to air out your personal problems, posts like this on the internet is not the proper way. Especially as a representative of the USPA BOD.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."