Safety/ regulation question... please respond

[gusto77 0]

So I just bought my first rig.... jumped it and loved it... no issues. My question(s) is/ are about the reeserve packing card. The last repack date is 13 June 09 and has a signature with a rigger' packer certification number... looks in order. The owner info has someone elses name on it and the max exit and max deployment weight arent filled in. Can I simply cross out the previous owners info and replace it with my own? Do I need to have someone fill out the max exit/ deployment weight? Also below the owner info someone wrote "Lost Card" so Im wonderin what that means. Thanks for your replies.

[jenkincb00 0]

First, congrats on the new rig.

Cross out previous owner information write in your own information.

Max exit/deployment weight is easily found on the manufacture of the reserves web site and you can fill that in yourself also.

Lost card usually indicates that the previous card was lost, meaning that there was a previous packing data card with maintenance records that is no longer available. So if the rig is say 5 years old and your card only has the last year worth of information on it there is 4 years of data not available...usually not a big deal.

[gusto77 0]

Thanks alot! Huge help!

[RiggerLee 61]

Keep in mind there is a max weight an deployment speed for the harness as well. Use the lesser of the two numbers for both weight and speed.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[fcajump 164]

Quote

So I just bought my first rig.... jumped it and loved it... no issues. My question(s) is/ are about the reeserve packing card. The last repack date is 13 June 09 and has a signature with a rigger' packer certification number... looks in order. The owner info has someone elses name on it and the max exit and max deployment weight arent filled in. Can I simply cross out the previous owners info and replace it with my own? Do I need to have someone fill out the max exit/ deployment weight? Also below the owner info someone wrote "Lost Card" so Im wonderin what that means. Thanks for your replies.

Technically in the US there is no requirement to keep records all the way back to the mfg (as with engines/aircrafts/etc) so it is legal with only the latest repack. HOWEVER, most riggers seem to agree that being able to see what work has been done in the past is a good thing. I (we) recommend keeping all available records.

Also technically the completed repack must include the (current) owner's information. (FAR x.y.z... its too late to find the chapter/verse...)

So, just line it out and keep it.

Now, the only other questions are:
- is the old owner information consistent with the person who sold you the rig?
- if not, I would contact the indicated owner to ensure that I was not purchasing a stolen rig.*

*This is one of the services a rigger should provide when doing a pre-purchase inspection.

Just thoughts...
congrats and "case o' beer"!!!

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[mark 107]

Quote

Also technically the completed repack must include the (current) owner's information. (FAR x.y.z... its too late to find the chapter/verse...)

Five required items on the data card: date and place of packing, rigger number, rigger signature, notation of defects found. There is no requirement to have owner information, description of maintenance, make/model/serial number of canopy or harness/container. 65.131(c).

The required items for the rigger logbook: owner's name and address, date and place of work performed, description of work performed, parachute type, parachute make and serial number, and results of any drop tests. 65.131(a).

The purpose of the data card is to show the canopy has been aired and dried within the previous 180 days (60 days for natural fibers); owner information is irrelevant for this purpose. The absence of a requirement to put serial numbers on the data card comes from the time when data cards were physically attached to the pack.

Putting owner info on the data card is good for lost-and-found of the card or the rig; putting serial numbers on the card associates the card with the rig. Riggers should put at least the h/c info on the card. Although it has been common practice to put just the canopy info on the card, doing so means the card cannot be matched to the pack job without opening the pack job.

It's a good idea to put maintenance info on the card too, especially AAD info and Airworthiness Directive/Service Bulletin compliance info.

"Parachute" means parachute system, not just a canopy.

Mark

[RiggerLee 61]

Corect me if I'm wrong on this. Tecnicaly an old card could be discarded as long as it does not show compliance with a SB or AD. All you need is the current pack job but that signiture is not leagul with out documentation of compliance with all SB, AD, or alterations. Eather preveous sign offs or it must be signed off again. example, Javalin sign off for removal of the RSL or the capwell pin check.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[fcajump 164]

Quote

Quote

Also technically the completed repack must include the (current) owner's information. (FAR x.y.z... its too late to find the chapter/verse...)

Five required items on the data card: date and place of packing, rigger number, rigger signature, notation of defects found. There is no requirement to have owner information, description of maintenance, make/model/serial number of canopy or harness/container. 65.131(c).

The required items for the rigger logbook: owner's name and address, date and place of work performed, description of work performed, parachute type, parachute make and serial number, and results of any drop tests. 65.131(a).

The purpose of the data card is to show the canopy has been aired and dried within the previous 180 days (60 days for natural fibers); owner information is irrelevant for this purpose. The absence of a requirement to put serial numbers on the data card comes from the time when data cards were physically attached to the pack.

Putting owner info on the data card is good for lost-and-found of the card or the rig; putting serial numbers on the card associates the card with the rig. Riggers should put at least the h/c info on the card. Although it has been common practice to put just the canopy info on the card, doing so means the card cannot be matched to the pack job without opening the pack job.

It's a good idea to put maintenance info on the card too, especially AAD info and Airworthiness Directive/Service Bulletin compliance info.

"Parachute" means parachute system, not just a canopy.

Mark

I stand corrected.
Sec. 65.131

Records.

(a) Each certificated parachute rigger shall keep a record of the packing, maintenance, and alteration of parachutes performed or supervised by him. He shall keep in that record, with respect to each parachute worked on, a statement
of --
(1) Its type and make;
(2) Its serial number;
(3) The name and address of its owner;
(4) The kind and extent of the work performed;
(5) The date when and place where the work was performed; and
(6) The results of any drop tests made with it.

(b) Each person who makes a record under paragraph (a) of this section shall keep it for at least 2 years after the date it is made.

(c) Each certificated parachute rigger who packs a parachute shall write, on the parachute packing record attached to the parachute, the date and place of the packing and a notation of any defects he finds on inspection. He shall sign that record with his name and the number of his certificate.

Thanks for the refresher.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[mark 107]

Quote

Correct me if I'm wrong on this. Technically an old card could be discarded as long as it does not show compliance with a SB or AD. All you need is the current pack job but that signature is not legal with out documentation of compliance with all SB, AD, or alterations. Either previous sign offs or it must be signed off again. example, Javelin sign off for removal of the RSL or the Capewell pin check.

No regulation requires specific additional information on the packing data card (except the catch-all about following the manufacturer's instructions), but it is good practice.

Mark

[RiggerLee 61]

I'm not sure your following me. If a rig is signed off for an AD or SB. Useing the RSl as an example. And the card is lost. Where does that leave the airworthiness of the rig. With no documentation of compliance then I say the rig is unairworthy till reinspected, resigned, retested, etc. There are a number of these old AD/SB that madde a big splash at the time but have now been kind of frogoten and if a card is lost the rig is once again unairworthy with all the liability and every thing else that that implies.

Lee

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[mark 107]

Quote

I'm not sure you're following me. If a rig is signed off for an AD or SB. Using the RSl as an example, if the card is lost, where does that leave the airworthiness of the rig? With no documentation of compliance then I say the rig is unairworthy until reinspected, resigned, retested, etc. There are a number of these old AD/SB that made a big splash at the time but have now been kind of forgotten and if a card is lost the rig is once again unairworthy with all the liability and every thing else that that implies.

Lee

The presence of a maintenance entry (for example, "inspected IAW PDSB-002 and RWSB-230505") does not relieve of us the responsibility for verifying compliance. At most, it is a reminder that we should be checking all previous work.

As far as liability is concerned, we riggers are responsible for the entire system, including all previous work at the time of delivery of an airworthy system to a customer. Once the rig is in the customer's possession, he assumes all responsibility for keeping it in an airworthy condition, including returning it for maintenance if necessary. If a customer loses documentation, and by doing so renders the rig legally unairworthy, that's his problem and his liability, not ours.

Mark

[jenkincb00 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm not sure you're following me. If a rig is signed off for an AD or SB. Using the RSl as an example, if the card is lost, where does that leave the airworthiness of the rig? With no documentation of compliance then I say the rig is unairworthy until reinspected, resigned, retested, etc. There are a number of these old AD/SB that made a big splash at the time but have now been kind of forgotten and if a card is lost the rig is once again unairworthy with all the liability and every thing else that that implies.

Lee

The presence of a maintenance entry (for example, "inspected IAW PDSB-002 and RWSB-230505") does not relieve of us the responsibility for verifying compliance. At most, it is a reminder that we should be checking all previous work.

As far as liability is concerned, we riggers are responsible for the entire system, including all previous work at the time of delivery of an airworthy system to a customer. Once the rig is in the customer's possession, he assumes all responsibility for keeping it in an airworthy condition, including returning it for maintenance if necessary. If a customer loses documentation, and by doing so renders the rig legally unairworthy, that's his problem and his liability, not ours.

Mark

I don't think a lost data card is quite that big of a deal, lets say someone lost a data card and they have a vigil in the container. All riggers should then check the vigil to ensure that the cutter has been changed out since the recall in like 2005 or 2006, check the manufacture's website or call the manufacture to ensure that it meets current standards and take the appropriate actions if needed to make the system airworthy. The same process could be done with a Raven reserve that had a recall or a Mirage that had a recall. Ensure it is up to snuff and if it isn't give the owner the options on how to get it there.

Losing a card sucks, but it shouldn't make a rig useless or unairworthy IMHO.

[RiggerLee 61]

By unairworthey I'm not saying that it should be thrown away. It implies that it is in a nonjumpable condition. A rig with an expired repack is "unairworthy" I'll use the RSL thing once again as an example as it is esentaly a paper work issue. Yes there could be wear issues but that's just part of basic inspection. The Master riggers signiture and endorsement makes leagal the alteration of removeing the RSL. A senior rigger repacking the container every 120 or now 180 days does not have to perform or file repeatedly for the alteration. it's beyond the priblidges of his certificat any way. It's a one time endorsment of the alteration by a Master rigger that makes the alteration airworthy, read that leagal. Now the card is lost. I say that rig is not airworthy with out that paperwork and could not be repacked till it is once again signed off somthing which the regular sen rigger would not be empowered to do.

There are other one time checks that are noted on the card or hopefully permanantly marked on the gear. I'm not saying that the rigger is not responcable for makeing sure that the rig is airworthy or that these SB have been met. But posettion of the proper documentation showing compliance means that they do not have to be repeated endlessly by every rigger at every repack. Otherwise only a Master rigger could pack a Jav with the RSL removed.

Loseing paper is a bitch, eg. Some where along the line someone lost the paperwork on the prop on my plane. It was a great prop just a paper work thing. Had to take it in to the shop. $500 later I had a yellow tag that makes it airworthy, nice new paint job too.

Lee
lee@velocitysportswear.com
www.velocitysportswear.com

[riggerrob 635]

If a reserve packing data card is lost and the Master Rigger has to devote an hour or two of labour to research all the "outstanding" Service Bulletins, Airworthiness Directives, ... how much should he charge for his time?

[sundevil777 102]

I think a fair amount of "lost" packing cards is due to the fact that their owners forged a signature, and didn't want the next rigger that packed it to see evidence of it.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 635]

Agreed!
I no longer get angry about skydivers forging my signature - when it is time for "pencil packing."
I merely charge them every time my signature appears on their card!