Big Canopy - High Wind

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

This weekend we had heavy wind at the dropzone and I was testing different main canopies. I tried out a Pilot 188 a Pilot 168 and a Quadra V-Tec 190. The only stand-up landing I made was with the Quadra, which is a rectangular main. Why is this? I am about to buy a Pilot, a semi-elliptical Zero P, and it worries me that my landings weren't as good with this main. The last 3 years I have been jumping a Saphire 2 189 and a Sihouette 190.

[JohnRich 4]

So you're going to buy the canopy that you have trouble making decent landings with?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

[rhys 0]

What is wrong with the saphire 2? they are a much better canpy in my opinion. is there a reason you are changing?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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This weekend we had heavy wind at the dropzone and I was testing different main canopies. I tried out a Pilot 188 a Pilot 168 and a Quadra V-Tec 190. The only stand-up landing I made was with the Quadra, which is a rectangular main. Why is this?

Your speed has components in two directions: downwards and forwards. Too much of either when you put significant weight on your feet means you don't stand up and/or get hurt. That "or" part is tricky - while you can stand up a landing with too much speed doing so is more likely to hurt you than PLFing.

When you have a substantial head wind you can't flare as far before the forward component of your velocity becomes zero or backwards although you're still heading towards the ground as fast as you would on a no-wind day. So the timing on your flare is much more critical.

With modern canopy shapes if you were plaining out nicely on a no wind day and slowly adding toggle until you run out of lift and have to finish, the same thing works on high wind days although you don't go as far. When you're arriving at ground level just as you run out of lift you're going to run out of forward speed before you're stopped vertically on a high-wind day.

The other side of this is perception. For the same canopy flight path, your ground track is steeper. The look of things might throw you off.

As a simplification you might start with a lower but quicker flare.

You might have just gotten lucky with the Quadra. You might have had some inspiration. It might just have meshed better with you perceive things and fly canopies. Without a lot more landings you can't tell.

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I am about to buy a Pilot, a semi-elliptical Zero P, and it worries me that my landings weren't as good with this main. The last 3 years I have been jumping a Saphire 2 189 and a Sihouette 190.

When you're not getting consistent stand-up landings in all wind conditions with a 188 you're not ready for the 168.

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

A friend of mine let me borrow his Safire 2 189 until he found a buyer for it. From April till July, I did 45 jumps on it. I could land it in all wind conditions, but I was really bothered by the fact that it consistently took 300 meters to open. I do a lot of 4-way and we separate at 1500. I had to pull higher than the others to make time for the slow opening, which meant not tracking as far. But now I am beginning to work with a 16-way team, and my coach has asked me to track further and pull lower (at 900). So the slow easy openings of the Safire just don't work for this. And besides, my friend found a buyer, so I had to detach it and give it back.

The reason I am buying a Pilot is because I am getting a great deal on it. I had done a day-long demo with the Pilot 168 in May and I just loved it. But the wind conditions were not as extreme as today. On that day I landed great and was sure i wanted it. And I was sure that size was better for me. Today my old AFF teacher was watching me land and he said I better think twice about downsizing. But the wind sack was standing at a 90 degree angle and there were rainclouds in the sky. (We actually jumped through them more than once.)

I am thinking if I order a custom Pilot 168, it will arrive at Christmas and I won't be jumping it till next March anyway. For the rest of this season (till October) I can continue borrowing the Quadra V-Tec 190. (I could buy it if I wanted, because the owner just downsized, but I already promised the Pilot Dealer I would buy from him.)

[humanflite 0]

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........ but I was really bothered by the fact that it consistently took 300 meters to open. I do a lot of 4-way and we separate at 1500. I had to pull higher than the others to make time for the slow opening, which meant not tracking as far.
..............
But now I am beginning to work with a 16-way team, and my coach has asked me to track further and pull lower (at 900).

Hi,
Can you clarify this please?!!
Your normal seperation height would be at 1500ft AGL? and your normal pull altitude?

and your coach now wants you to pull at 900ft AGL?

with the 900ft~ opening height you mention on the Safire 2 theres not much headroom there....?! if I am reading this right

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

METERS!! not feet

[skybytch 259]

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The reason I am buying a Pilot is because I am getting a great deal on it.

Bad reason #1 to buy a smaller parachute? Because it's a good deal.

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I had done a day-long demo with the Pilot 168 in May and I just loved it. But the wind conditions were not as extreme as today. On that day I landed great and was sure i wanted it. And I was sure that size was better for me. Today my old AFF teacher was watching me land and he said I better think twice about downsizing.

Good idea #1 if you don't like injuries? Listen to people with experience when they suggest that you might not want to downsize just yet.

[mr2mk1g 10]

You're asking about differences due to canopy type. You've a pretty good answer about canopy size right above mine.

Not being able to get good landings on different makes of canopy could be several things. Firstly - how many jumps is this over? If only one or two, it's pretty weak data to work with - you could simply have screwed up the landings on the 1 or 2 jumps you made on other canopies?

Canopies made by different manufacturers have different flare points. Some canopies give you full flare at mid chest point. Some canopies give you full flare at the very bottom end of the toggle stroke. It's important to perform practice flares up high and find the stall point on each canopy you jump before attempting to land them.

The flare point on a Pilot is quite deep into the toggle stroke. If you're used to jumping canopies which have a flare point much higher in the toggle stroke, you may not be fully flaring the Pilot.

This is a fairly common problem for people stepping from one manufacturer to another. Not all canopies flare alike.

Of course, each canopy may also be different depending on the brake settings on that individual canopy. There may even been something wrong with that particular canopy, though that's less common. Maybe you even caught a gust? In short, it's hard to tell now why one landed fine and you had trouble landing with the others.

The most likely answer though is that it was pilot error – ie you, rather than the canopy itself. The only real answer if you continue to have concerns is for more demoing.

[billvon 2,396]

>I tried out a Pilot 188 a Pilot 168 and a Quadra V-Tec 190. The
>only stand-up landing I made was with the Quadra, which is a rectangular
>main. Why is this?

Most likely because you lucked out.

I have a friend with 40 jumps who weighs about 130. She's jumped several different canopies - an Omega, a Pilot 188, a Spectre 210, a Spectre 190. She was having trouble landing all of them, and then yesterday she had a great landing under the Pilot 188.

Does this mean that the Pilot is a great parachute, or it's the parachute for her? Not really. It means she's learning how to land and she got it right (once) under the Pilot. I have jumped all the above canopies and I know for sure that they can all be landed just fine.

This is the danger in putting just one or two jumps on each canopy, especially under funky wind conditions. You may just 'get lucky' with one parachute.

If you are having good luck with the Safire2 189, I'd recommend sticking with that. When you are ready to downsize, try a smaller Safire first.

[LittleOne 0]

I jump a Pilot 150 loaded at 1.15. It regularly takes at least 800 feet to open, as measured from wave off to fully open canopy. This is about the same as the Safire 2 you were jumping. I suppose the canopy could be packed to open quickly but Pilots are not generally known to be quick opening canopies, as I recall.

[AnKaLi 0]

I don't think I could ever change my opening altitude because someone else wanted me to, especially if it made me really uncomfortable.

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

Lots of points to respond to.

First of all, yes, I should have done more jumps on each canopy. Saturday I did 3 jumps on the Quadra then one on the Pilot 168. Sunday I did 3 on the Pilot 168, then one on the Pilot 188 then one on the Quadra. So I guess I should have just stayed with one canopy for the entire day on each day. I am doing a week-long RW camp next week and could ask the rigger there if he has demos I can try out.

I did do practice flares on each while at about 700 meters up, and I did 360 turns and measured the descent on each turn. The Quadra took the longest, then the Pilot 188 and the snappiest was the 168. I guess I didn't quite get the flare points right on the pilots. But the Quadra flare point was all the way down at the bottom. (I actually asked the rigger if the lines were longer because the jumper who owned the Quadra was tall and I am short.)

About the opening altitude question, that is a problem. I had gotten used to pulling higher because the Safire took so long to open. I swear both Pilots and the Quadra opened faster, which I liked. It makes me feel safe.

The coach said if I don't track far enough and open at 1100 meters, then someone might be tracking above me while my canopy is opening, just because there are 15 others tracking at the same time. He wants me to track farther and open at 900 so as not to endanger the others on the team, which I understand. On the other hand my ex-AFF teacher warns me to have the canopy open at 900 so I can decide by 800 if I want to cut away and then do the actual cutaway by 500 meters if there is a malfunction. I guess the 16-way coach and the AFF teacher haven't talked to each other about this issue.

[in2jumping 0]

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I didn't quite get the flare points right on the pilots.

I personally hate the flare on the Pilot and think its a difficult canopy to land. I found that 80% of the flare is in the last 20% of the toggle stroke and it does not plane out till toggles are almost to your waist, which I feel makes timing your landings difficult.

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

I did a canopy course last year where the teacher taught us to keep the toggles all the way as of about 70 meters, count to 5 and then slowly flare all the way down to the knees. I would be guessing that the low flare point on the Pilot means that the flare needs to be faster, of course this runs the risk that the full brake point may be a few feet above ground if the flare is too soon.

[stevesimms 0]

Have you tried a few hop-n-pops?

Then you can figure out how the canopy flies with you, and practice all your flares high up.. You have the alti on you, so you can judge how much altitude it takes, and where your hand positions are when in each stage of the flare.

Whenever I have downsized, I always opened high, and practiced all of that before trying anything low down.

I understand your predicament though, and recently downsized to a 170. First jump had to adjust the break line lengths, but the second one, i havent had a sweeter landing. Each canopy does land differently, and i think ive figured that out quite well, downsizing from a 285, 235, 190, 185, and now on my 170 in a relatively short period of time (4 months).
But as ive said, my best have been on my 170. Maybe it is also just the experience of the previous jumps helping, but i dont know.

You need to find out what works for you. Yes, teachers and coaches have thousands of jumps worth of experience, and that experience teaches you to fly the canopy well and safely, but at the end of the day, you need to find out for yourself which landing routine and practice work best for you.

[mmacro 0]

I'm a new jumper (A lic) and active military. We have a saying...

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

I've had a lot of advice from Golden Knights, SF jumpers and others with way more experience under their belts.

First is that with a new main you should be opening high and learning its stall points. Brakes slowly pulled to full extension do something radically different than a fast, full- brake application. And again, half brakes to full brakes (fast or slow) is another matter all together.

Without seeing how you flare nobody can really give you really accurate advice.

What was posted before my 2-cents is the most important... open high, play around and learn stall points for various brake application and then try them out at landing during the weather you will most likely be jumping in. (landing at noon in Texas desert at is night/day to jumping in Alaska at noon - I've done both).

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Take it slow. Don't let people pressure you. If a team wants to push you outside your safety/comfort zone, maybe that's a team that's not so intereasted in your personal progression/safety.

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

Well, it turns out they have no demo canopies at the dropzone where I'll be taking the RW course next week. The rigger only has 2 canopies for sale, a 132 and 120, which are far too small for me. That means that the rest of the season I'll be jumping the Quadra V-Tec 190. I can play around with different flare speeds on that. Or I can rent a Pilot 188 or 168 at my home dropzone to try them out more extensively, but it is a little expensive, as you pay per jump. Basically I will be buying a canopy that I haven't jumped much at all. I guess if I hate it once I get it, I could just try to resell it and buy one from another company (Sabre, Spectre, Safire, Lotus, Nrg, Silhouette). But I am hopeful that I will love the Pilot.

I think that once the Pilot actually arrives, I should just sign up for a canopy control course and learn to get the most out of it.

[jakee 1,254]

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I would be guessing that the low flare point on the Pilot means that the flare needs to be faster, of course this runs the risk that the full brake point may be a few feet above ground if the flare is too soon.

WTF? Any canopy will plane out high if you flare too soon and don't adjust

Pretty much everything you've written so far on this thread is really, really scary!

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[mmacro 0]

You always have the option of renting a main from the mfg. Most of them have a program that allows you to rent the main and have your rigger attach it on your container. You pay a fee for the rental and shipping - but have it for the whole weekend.

But for sure, NEVER just buy something because it is a good deal and you think you might grow into it. Make sure it is right for you, that it is in your capabilities and your comfortable with it first.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I did a canopy course last year where the teacher taught us to keep the toggles all the way as of about 70 meters

Make sure "toggles all the way up" means just right before tail deflection point, rather than the loops at the top of the risers.

This is because I had about 7 inches of slack line when I first started jumping a relined Sabre 170 back around jump 70-ish or thereabouts. I had great standup success with it even to the first jump, until it got relined, and then of a sudden, I was having some difficulties... My landings were dodgy until I figured out I needed to pre-position my toggle positions to where the loose slack starts giving resistance (tail deflection). Deflection began about 7 inches below the loops. At that point, when I started prepositioning my toggles there instead of at the loops at the very top, my flares was much better.

On some linesets (especially worn ones that needs to be relined), tail deflection is the same or above the loops where the toggles are. If there's lots of resistance to even slightly pull the toggles two inches away from the loops, the lineset needs to be replaced -- the brakes are too short and you're always flying braked even when you think you're flying full flight...

It was a "gotcha" I learned back in 2005...

[Feeblemind 1]

Hi Rebecca,

I have over 800 jumps on my pilots so I would like to ask a question:

Under canopy have you taken the time to look up and see how far you have to pull down on the toggles before the tail actually deflects? On my 188 I noticed I had approximately 8" of pull before I had tail deflection. I spoke to my rigger and he adjusted my steering lines (problem solved)
Also, do you practice flare the canopy up high to see where the flare point is as well as where the stall point is?

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked

[Rebecca-Berlin 0]

Hi feeble mind,

Yes, last week when up high i practiced flaring more than once with each canopy. I found the stall point was way later on the bigger ones. But, as I said, right now I can only practice the flares and stalls on the Quadra V-Tec, which I will be flying till the season is over in October.

I have not done any hop-n-pops with Pilots. But I think I will begin next season with hop-n-pops and flare evaluation. It is too late now to contact the mfg about demoing a pilot next week at the RW course. And my favorite rigger (el duderino) gives a canopy course at the beginning of each season, so I will make a point to travel to his dropzone in April and talk to him about all this and let him watch me land. He usually films all landings and talks to the students about what he/they see.

@jakee: I am sorry that what I say sounds scary.

I am trying to be safe. But I do notice that here in Germany there seems to be a lot less canopy demoing then in the US. The rigger at the DZ I am going to next week said Aerodyne was "there" July 12/13 and will be "there" again August 30/31 (I am at a competition elsewhere then). So I guess Aerodyne doesn't just send the canopies, they send a dealer who brings the canopies and talks about them. I think they tend to pick events where there will be lots of jumpers at one time. On Aug 30/31 there is a 16 way competition.

[Feeblemind 1]

Rebecca,

I guess the last thing I need to ask is this:

Do you like the way the Pilot flys with the exception of your difficult landings? I agree with Skybytch here (as well as others) do not buy a canopy because you might save a few dollars, screwing up landings can cost you alot in medical bills (I know I am being a downer, but it's reality).

If you do like the way the pilot flys and your landings are the only issues I am sure they can be adressed with your rigger and instructor as mine were.

Feeble

Fire Safety Tip: Don't fry bacon while naked