Can't make it to 3 on flare !! Student question

[travrois 0]

I'm a student in AFP. Things are going well, and I'm learning a lot. I've done about 25 or so jumps and not one time have I been to this magical place, "3" on my flare. We're lucky for a 2, from me. I haven't been seriously hurt by any of my landings but I do consistently get my ass kicked by the ground. Now that I'm getting off radio assistance, I'd like to focus on getting my arms to 3. I've tried to in the air and I feel I physically get my hands to go down to 2. I'm a lady, not that that makes a difference, and I've been told that it's not because I'm not strong enough. I do feel like I am going down as much as I physically can and that gets me to a "2."

I've asked many-a-people, including many of my AFP instructors and they keep telling me, "Well just go to 3!" but I'm like, "WHERE THE HELL IS 3 then? THATS AS MUCH AS I CAN PULL IT" -- as I limp into the AFP room with grass in my teeth.

Also something that I'm wondering but occasionally when I open my parachute my chest strap will go around my neck (ouch) or even above my head. I'm working on finding the right fit for a student rig, but do you think that would have anything to do with me not being able to go to 3 ?

I don't mind advice from putzes because none of my AFP instructors seem to have better advice for me, and of course I'm going to run any advice pass them so they can approve of it.

[pilotdave 0]

Might help to get a video of a couple of your landings. It's possible you're doing something wrong like flaring out to the side too much or not holding your arms in a way that gives you the most leverage. No way to know without seeing video of what you're doing. If the best technique isn't working, maybe you need to do some weight training and get stronger. A different canopy might also be easier for you to flare, but not too many people would recommend downsizing if you are having trouble landing a bigger canopy. That will be up to your instructors. But I know that I really have to think about getting my elbows up and pushing straight down to finish the flare on a tandem canopy. If I flare it like my own canopy, my forearms get about level and then just stop and I can't flare any farther. Sounds a lot like what you're describing.

Dave

[BikerBabe 0]

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Also something that I'm wondering but occasionally when I open my parachute my chest strap will go around my neck (ouch) or even above my head. I'm working on finding the right fit for a student rig, but do you think that would have anything to do with me not being able to go to 3 ?

I'm going to go with YES here!

flaring is one thing, but you need to be concerned with your SAFETY here. this is making a big alarm bell go off in my head. Have you mentioned this to your instructors? Not to scare you, but read what you wrote. If that's true, now stop and think about what might happen if you have to cut away your main in a low-speed malfunction situation? The chest strap is across your CHEST for a reason.

Not to get off-topic, but this alarms me. a lot. You need to find a rig with significantly shorter main lift webs, or at least one where you can adjust the chest strap lower.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[danielcroft 2]

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I'm going to go with YES here!

flaring is one thing, but you need to be concerned with your SAFETY here. this is making a big alarm bell go off in my head. Have you mentioned this to your instructors? Not to scare you, but read what you wrote. If that's true, now stop and think about what might happen if you have to cut away your main in a low-speed malfunction situation? The chest strap is across your CHEST for a reason.

Not to get off-topic, but this alarms me. a lot. You need to find a rig with significantly shorter main lift webs, or at least one where you can adjust the chest strap lower.

+1!!!!

Step 1: get a rig that fits you (better)!

I've had several friends going through student that were of a smaller build & female. They told me they had much better landings on canopies that weren't ridiculously large (like a 110lb student under a 280). Clearly that's something you need to discuss with your instructor as going with a smaller canopy also means you'll be approaching the ground faster.

If you have a hanging harness for EP practice, you could use that to see where 3 is and have one of your instructors point it out to you.

Please find a rig that actually fits you, it'll not only be safer but you'll probably feel a lot more comfortable too.

[skron 0]

+2
I agree with both the last 2 comments. I have to admit I'd like to know where you jump because it scares me that your instructors response would really be "just go to 3" if what your saying is true.

Have your instructors looked at how the rig fits you? I know I am not very experienced but I do know through common sense that if your chest strap is at your neck or higher your risers (and toggles) are going to be higher, possibly preventing you from flaring all the way.

I am a small girl also and had some trouble flaring student gear. It will get better when you get gear more suited for you. But in the meantime you need to push it a little farther with your instructors to make sure you are jumping gear that is safe for you!

Well behaved women don't often make history.

[aresye 0]

I say another possibility why the chest strap is higher. When tightening your leg straps, especially on student gear, make sure you push down on the locking keepers that prevent the leg straps from loosening. Sometimes with this older gear, the leg straps can loosen quite a bit on opening. When you're lower in the seat, obviously the chest strap will be higher.

This used to happen to me occasionally. Now when I suit up, I always press on those keepers.

As for the flaring issue. IMO it's much harder to flare a larger canopy, with a lighter wing loading. Reason being is that your forward airspeed is not going to be as fast, so you won't be generating as much lift in the flare. If the canopy is F111, or a hybrid, it will make it even more difficult.

When you begin to downsize, you'll probably find the flare to have more lift, and easier to time, but I wouldn't downsize at all until you get at least a few good standup landings.

Some video would definitely help out.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[jsaxton 0]

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Also something that I'm wondering but occasionally when I open my parachute my chest strap will go around my neck (ouch) or even above my head.

If your chest strap is indeed above your head after deployment DO NOT JUMP THAT RIG AGAIN!!!

You could fall out of the rig.

[Andy9o8 2]

First, I echo what the others have said about your harness fit - your chest strap positioning under canopy is scary as shit. Take care of that problem first. I agree that if your chest strap is above your head, you could fall out of your rig. Now that would solve your flaring problem, but, you know...

Second - and I hesitate to give canopy piloting advice to students over the Web - ASK YOUR INSTRUCTOR whether "taking a wrap" of the steering lines around your hands might help you flare better. I will state right away that there are certain dangers to this, for example, you might over-flare and stall too high, or if you needed to cutaway, having steering lines wrapped around your hands could either prevent that or rip your fingers off. Not pretty either way.

Third: Until you get all of this worke out, please please PLF your landings. Practice PLFs on the ground, and do them when you land, until you really have soft landings nailed. As a former round canopy jumper, I can personally attest: PLFs can save you a world of hurt.

[danielcroft 2]

I have a noob question.

Would the OP being that low in her harness mean that her pulling the toggles all the way down would be further than if she were actually in a rig that fit her?

I guess I'm confused because I would have thought that she'd be much closer to stall if the three rings are above her head than if they were at her shoulders when doing a full flare.

Maybe I'm just not picturing it right...

[Bertt 0]

I think you're picturing it right. That should bring the canopy to the stall point early, resulting in a hard landing. (Note: this is not advice for the OP. You'll need someone to help you in person with the issues you've raised here.)

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[danielcroft 2]

Could that mean her not getting to "3" (whatever the hell that means) is a good thing? Or perhaps she's stalling the canopy on landing and hence the ouchy?

I honestly have no idea how that would work with a canopy. That is, how far down you can pull the toggles, do they stop? Will the stall mean that they stop? I don't know, just trying to understand how such a poorly fitting rig would affect control.

[mdrejhon 8]

It might be worth trying different gear at a different dropzone. Find out if your dropzone has a "partner dropzone" that may allow you to jump different student gear that might end up being safer for you... This may require co-operative co-ordinating between both dropzones, since you're a student. Just be aware that rivalries between dropzones can be fierce sometimes, so word your request carefully to your instructor such as "partner dropzone"...

Just some other (additional) suggestion to many great ones already here... I have a nagging suspicion at 25 student jumps, you've probably tried several different fits of student gears, and thus the gear choices may be suboptimal for you... (I could be wrong, but...)

Also, if you find a safe canopy with the proper fit, some canopies do partial flares better when done at different speeds. Talk to your instructor, and ask if you can get a high-altitude hop-and-pop (10,000 feet pull), so you can practice fast flares, slow flares, etc. Big lightly-loaded 7-cell canopies often seem to need a faster non-staged flare, to land better -- at least in my experience -- but it varies by canopy so don't follow my advice, talk to the instructor. For example, I have noticed that heavy guys seem to get away with a somewhat slower flare than a light guy on the same student canopy, due to increased airspeed of the heavier loading only needing a smaller flare to convert forward velocity to zero-out the vertical velocity. Again, don't listen to me, as certain flare techniques are dangerous on certain canopies (i.e. fast flares on a small canopy) and you can be seriously hurt. But it's worth covering with the instructor, once a proper-fitting gear is found...

[travrois 0]

Hi, OP HERE:

Thanks everyone for your input, I really appreciate it.

Geez, you guys are awfully concerned about my chest strap. Maybe I'm not discribing it correctly but I don't see how I'd fall out of it, I would need to make a special effort to do so, I think. The strap going above my neck doesn't happen that much anymore, but I did use a different rig with my last jump (it's in the same, I don't know, "class" of rig size that's recommended for my weight) -- and it hurt like hell, the strap was at my forehead and the leg straps were digging into me like no one's business. When this happens I prop myself up as much as possible but the toggles are a pain in the ass to get to, and the controllability check is fine but I wouldn't say I can manuever them 110%, since my side straps are digging under my armpits.

I completely agree that I need to find a rig that fits me. I don't know if this is worth mentioning but I'm 5'11 and on the heavier side (as girls just love to admit). Is there a way to tell if it fits on the ground?

That being said I am learning to skydive at one of the best facilities in the world with great instructors. I am so focused on progressing in freefall that everything else worth mentioning to my instructors feels like an afterthought, especially when you're safe and overjoyed on the ground. They see my landings though and their best assessment is just "Go to 3!" I've been told by strangers who land near me the same advice, when I tell them I can't go to three they just say I need to try harder. I'm no weakling but I swear under canopy I'm going to three as hard as I can, even under the risk of stalling, and I just don't think I'm getting it. It would be one thing if it was just a judgment issue and I'm flaring too low and I don't have the opportunity to get to 3 but I don't think that's it.

Also, something that I'm thinking about is the way my legs are positioned as I come in for landing. When I land, if I'm lucky, it's on my knees and just skids a little. Most of the time, my knees buckle and my legs are sort of behind me and that's quite painful, but again, I walk away from it everytime, it just sucks. Could my putting my legs behind me (this is unconsciously) be inhibiting my ability to flare? I honestly would be concerned to put my legs ahead of me at any time, as that would be extremely painful if I flare incorrectly.

Any thoughts are appreciated. I hope I've explained things as clearly as I can. I swear I'm not a totally incompetent skydiver although my ignorant questions may seem like it ! I am as safe as possible in every other respect. I'm learning a lot and I'd rather sound like an idiot than not know the answer.

Thanks again !

[Bertt 0]

Whatever is happening here is not a good thing. She could be stalling the canopy prematurely, or she might not be getting the toggles down far enough to get a full flare. I'm not sure if the ill fitting canopy is a factor in all her landings, or if it's just something that happens sometimes. At any rate, back to your question. You can pull the toggles down as far as your arms can reach. The brake lines can be adjusted different lengths for different people so that when you flare your canopy the canopy stalls or almost stalls when your hands are about all the way down - partly a matter of personal preference in exactly how the brakes are adjusted. If the chest strap, and therefore, the shoulder straps ride up a good bit, then that will take a lot of slack out of the brake lines before the flare even starts and pulling the toggles down will hit the stall point early. Pulling them down more will only deepen or hasten the stall. Look at your canopy next time you pack it and you'll see that the brakes can only go up until the toggle hits the guide ring, but the brakes can be pulled down the full length of the line ( if your arms were long enough ). In full flight, that is, with the toggles all the way up, you want some slack in the brake lines. If the harness doesn't stay on (or near) your shoulders, that could affect the adjustment of the brakes. I believe what you are picturing is correct.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[kelpdiver 2]

5'11" and chest strap at the forehead, barely able to reach the toggles, makes no sense to me. The painful leg straps, all too familiar. Skidding a landing in on your knees sounds awful, recipe for torn ligaments.

Definitely a time for instructors to weigh in. If her's think all is well, does this mean it's time to go elsewhere?

[danielcroft 2]

Thanks for the description Bertt. I'll definitely check my canopy & lines next time I get a chance - should be Saturday.

OP. Sounds like you're soldiering on which is great but it shouldn't be this way. If you're not capable of fully flaring your canopy then please (as someone else suggested) learn to PLF *really* well. That means not going to your knees but up the side of your body - ask your instructor if you're not sure.

I'd suggest putting the rig on and going to find your S&TA and ask about how it fits. As you've probably gathered, you could be putting yourself in danger jumping such an ill-fitting rig.

Sometimes it takes looking at things from the outside to actually see what's going on. I know when I help my friends riding (I've been riding for several years and help out my friends with technique), they feel (for example) that they're leaning with the bike in corners but they're really not. You may consider getting someone to video your landings to see what is actually going on.

I personally find it hard to believe that any instructor or DZ would allow a student to use equipment as you've described so there may be something that they're missing. Who does your gear check?

[Bertt 0]

Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you change your brake settings. If your landings are good, don't change anything. If you ever do need to change the brake setting on your own canopy, get a rigger to show you how to do it. If you're experimenting with brake settings on a new canopy, make small changes. Last but not least, make sure the toggles are fastened to the lines securely. The last thing you want is to flare and have a toggle come off in your hand.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[The_Don 0]

I personally find it hard to believe that any instructor or DZ would allow a student to use equipment as you've described so there may be something that they're missing. Who does your gear check?

[danielcroft 2]

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Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting you change your brake settings. If your landings are good, don't change anything. If you ever do need to change the brake setting on your own canopy, get a rigger to show you how to do it. If you're experimenting with brake settings on a new canopy, make small changes. Last but not least, make sure the toggles are fastened to the lines securely. The last thing you want is to flare and have a toggle come off in your hand.

Hadn't even ever considered the option of messing with my lines that would be beyond stupid. Thank you for the clarification, fortunately in this case it wasn't required.

[The_Don 0]

Last but not least, make sure the toggles are fastened to the lines securely. The last thing you want is to flare and have a toggle come off in your hand.

Now THAT is one F*#&ED UP statement!!!

Don't listen to this shit.

Damn ! My toggle broke off ! WTF??

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[denete 2]

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I personally find it hard to believe that any instructor or DZ would allow a student to use equipment as you've described so there may be something that they're missing. Who does your gear check?

Ding Ding!

We have a winner!

[hchunter614 0]

People are making a big deal about your chest strap because that's what holds you in your harness.

Does the rig fit properly on the ground?
Is the rig well maintained? (sounds like your leg straps may be loose after opening - are they tight during your gear check, is the keeper slipping?)

You say you're at "one of the best facilities in the world" but if they can't find gear that fits you properly you should find a dropzone that can.

If your chest strap is at your neck and you have a canopy malfunction and need to execute your emergency procedures your cutaway and reserve handles are going to be in places you're not used to them being and you may not even be able to reach them.

[DanG 1]

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Now THAT is one F*#&ED UP statement!!!

Don't listen to this shit.

Damn ! My toggle broke off ! WTF??

Actually losing a toggle is a very real possibility if you adjust the length of your steering lines and do not reattach the toggles properly, for instance by only finger trapping the line but not knotting or tacking. It has happened in the real, non-internet, world.

Learn a little more about your gear and how it works before slamming other posters with more knowledge.

The above does not, however, have anything to do with the OP's problem. To the OP, since you've already admitted to being a little overweight, one part of your problem may be that your leg straps are able to move around more than normal. This could especially be true if you carry a lot of your weight in your hips and thighs. If that is the case, you need to talk to your instructors and explain how the rig is riding up on you after deployment. The fit may look fine on the ground, but be totally wrong when under canopy. To test this, you can hook up the rig to a hanging harness with you in it. Your instructors may then be better able to work on the fit.

As far as not getting to "3" (which is terminology that I've never heard of) I assume you mean that you can't get your hands all the way down with elbows fully extended. There could be many reasons for this, and I'm not going to try to cover them over the internet. The fit of your rig could easily be playing a part, especially, as you said, if the laterals are up under your armpits.

In short, work first on finding gear that fits you both in freefall and under canopy. Practice your PLF's to avoid injury while you work on canopy control. Explain everything you've said here to your instructors. Don't assume they know any of it.

Skydiving does not have to be painful and uncomfortable. You can work it out.

- Dan G

[aresye 0]

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Last but not least, make sure the toggles are fastened to the lines securely. The last thing you want is to flare and have a toggle come off in your hand.

Now THAT is one F*#&ED UP statement!!!

Don't listen to this shit.

Damn ! My toggle broke off ! WTF??

LOL that actually happened to me on one of my AFF jumps. Had a good canopy, was stable, and was about to perform my control check. Popped the toggles off, and the right toggle snapped off the line. Line went through the grommet and started trailing behind the canopy. Landed it with rear risers.

Skydiving: You either learn from other's mistakes, or they'll learn from yours.

[travrois 0]

Hi OP Here,

Apparently there was some confusion about my original posts and if anyone thought that I was somehow slandering or disrespecting any of my wonderful instructors or my home dropzone, they are very wrong.

I have not brought my issues up in detail with my instructors because it hasn't been a huge deal to me. I HAVE NOT REALLY TALKED TO THEM ABOUT THIS, and that was MY ERROR, not any incompetence by my instructors. They couldn't possibly know what goes on when I open my canopy, I haven't even articulated well my problems with flaring, alls they know is what they see when they land, so naturally they just tell me to try going to "3" harder.

I thought this forum was a helpful venue for people with similar experience and could aid in my problems. Had I had known that it was more of a gossip column to slander an excellent dropzone and amazing instructors, I would have not bothered. Again, I apologize to those that know me who may have thought I was saying anything negative about my dropzone or my instructors. I think my instructors are all very kind, wise, thoughtful and extremely intelligent about what they do. Everytime I jump I am so impressed with how they can assess problems that I couldn't. I am incredibly honored and grateful to have them help me in AFP. So feel free to let them know I said that the next time you want to spread malicious interpretations of what I've posted.