Reserve Spectra Rip Cord

[KellyF 16]

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Hi Hackish, a ripcord housing or yellow cable guide or Vector III anti twist channel are all made the same way. It is a band of brass rolled in a spiral with the edges curved inside and pressed together. That technology allows the tube to be both flexible and extensible. There is no possibility of burr inside because of the way it is made.

The housings are actually made of stainless steel, and the ferrules on the ends of the cutaway housings and SOME ripcord housings are brass. These ferrules sometimes don't completely cap the sharp ends of the stainless coil where it was cut after they've been applied. This is something that's looked for during inspection, but isn't as big of an issue with coated or bare cable as it could be with a braided line.

If you look closely at the ferrules of your ripcord housing (UPT), you'll notice that they are stainless steel also, and reach further inside the housing. I believe Bill stated at one point that that style housing was the only kind he would use with a spectra ripcord (Bill, correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth
Bottom line, not all housings are created equal, and a thorough inspection of the inside ends of the housings should be done before someone installs one of these in a rig

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[MakeItHappen 15]

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Advantages:
1) the metal cable breaking strength is 920 lbs while the Spectra line is rated at 1000 lbs
2) it's very easy and reassuring to check the structure of the Spectra ripcord since you just have to check the bartack at both ends.
3) according Bill Booth this ripcord when being pulled at angle with respect to the ripcord metal housing offers considerably less friction than a metal cable.
4) since at the middle of the ripcord there is an inside chock cord (bungee), the installed Spectra ripcord is very slightly under tension which means should the D handle be removed from its pocket, there will be no floating ripcord (like it's possible with a metal cable). The chock cord under some tension will keep the handle against the main lift web and the metal ripcord housing.

Sometimes I question the rationality of jumpers and riggers.
If you list a bunch of advantages why don't you list the disadvantages?

Terry did a good job of challenging your 'advantage list' but I'll add to it.

1 - the difference in breaking strength is insignificant because the pull forces are supposed to be ~2% of that breaking strength.
2 - your view is myoptic. The entire cable has to be inspected for continuity. There is no way to inspect the bungee when it is installed.
3 - another insignificant difference. So you change the frictional force from 1/4 pound to 1/8 pound. BFD
4 - incorrect (see below)

Here is a list of disadvantages:

a - the spectra line is more susceptible to snagging, fraying, wearing out by dragging a rig, degradation by environmental factors
b - the tactile response from the spectra RC may lead a jumper to believe he has pulled the RC pin, when in fact he has only pulled to the maximum stretch length of the RC.
c - the tension in the spectra RC cable may make floaters MORE of an issue than a metal RC cable.

Here is a possible real life scenario that would make the spectra RC cable lethal when compared to a steel RC cable.

Suppose that you were in a canopy collision (CRW, after opening or in the pattern). This is a plausible and unfortunately too common occurrence. You whip out your hook knife and start slashing lines wrapped around your body. Unbeknownst to you, your RC has been dislodged. And as fate would have it, the RC cable (whether spectra or metal) has wrapped around a line of the other guy's canopy. Or you could say that the other guy's suspension line wrapped around your RC cable. The suspension line is holding the handle out away from your rig, but has not pulled it far enough to pull the reserve pin clear. You are there cutting lines away and oops --- hit the RC cable.

In the case of a metal cable, your hook knife will not cut it, but you might pull the reserve pin out.

In the case of a spectra cable, you might have killed yourself by taking away your reserve solution - unless you have the back up plan to wait for the AAD to fire.
And the bungee 'feature' of the spectra RC just kicked in and sent the spectra cable deep into the housing. At this point you wish they never did away with the 'last hope rope'.

If this situation happened to you, would you rather have a metal RC cable or a spectra RC cable?
Is an 80 lbs difference in breaking strength going to save you?
Are two fully functional bar tacks going to save you?
Is a slight difference in pull forces at an angle going to save you?
Is a bungee that snapped that spectra cable into the housing going to save you?
Or would a metal cable with a floating RC handle possibly save you?

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[andyhughes 0]

Are these ferrules installed during housing manufacture, or are they cut to length and "finished" by the container manufacturer?

[peek 20]

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Suppose that you were in a canopy collision (CRW, after opening or in the pattern). You whip out your hook knife and start slashing lines wrapped around your body. Unbeknownst to you, your RC has been dislodged.

Good catch, Jan! And it could get cut even without you using your hook knife. It could get friction burned in two with a suspension line in a wrap. Even without the handle becoming dislodged, because there is a small amount of cable (line) exposed.

[in2jumping 0]

Another disadvantage would be getting your reserve handle snagged on something exiting. If I understand correctly the spectra rip cord does not clear the housing when pulled. So you would have a reserve out and also possible be in tow with the aircraft, or is would tear the the housing off your rig.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Another disadvantage would be getting your reserve handle snagged on something exiting. If I understand correctly the spectra rip cord does not clear the housing when pulled. So you would have a reserve out and also possible be in tow with the aircraft, or is would tear the the housing off your rig.

The spectra ripcord is as likely to clear the housing as the stainless steel cable with the marine eye.

The little velcro sandwich tab on the Vector RSL and top flap is meant to help ensure that the pin doesn't get pulled up to the ripcord housing.

Doesn't always work, but the problem is not unique to the spectra ripcord at all.

[floormonkey 0]

"should" is the key word. If all riggers "did", I never would have made the comment.




I fail to see how this would prevent a floating handle. Will the spectra seperate the velcro and reinsert the handle? While the handle may stay closer to the pocket, it will still be floating, with the same chance of slipping behind the harness or otherwise flopping around. If you LOOK at your handles, the handle will have only moved a few inches and should be easy to find. Hell, if you protect your handles and are aware of what is going on, you probably won't have this problem anyway.

My concern is more about wear on the spectra line, either from a burr in the housing (that may have happened during or after assembly) or because of sand/dirt/etc. causing abnormal wear patterns. There is also the small amount of line that will be constantly subjected to UV damage. How will we be able to inspect and judge this wear without doing a destructive test?

So, how many deaths/injuries would have been prevented by using this type of handle instead of the normal metal ripcord?

[billbooth 10]

Please remember that Spectra MAIN ripcords, going through exactly the same housings, have been used on thousands of Sigma tandem rigs, for millions of jumps, for eight (8) years now. No one has reported a single snag, and certainly no one has cut or broken one. I wouldn't have put this ripcord on a reserve without testing it very well as a main ripcord. By the way, a single ball swage, which is what most metal ripcords use, is only rated at 600 lbs. This make my Spectra ripcord almost twice a strong. Metal ripcords have served us well, but I believe Spectra ripcords are an improvement. Metal connector links also work well, but nearly everyone has gone to slinks. Only time will tell.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Another disadvantage would be getting your reserve handle snagged on something exiting. If I understand correctly the spectra rip cord does not clear the housing when pulled. So you would have a reserve out and also possible be in tow with the aircraft, or is would tear the the housing off your rig.

The spectra ripcord is as likely to clear the housing as the stainless steel cable with the marine eye.

The little velcro sandwich tab on the Vector RSL and top flap is meant to help ensure that the pin doesn't get pulled up to the ripcord housing.

Doesn't always work, but the problem is not unique to the spectra ripcord at all.

But, currently, the reserve RC stop is unique to RWS/UPT rigs.

As you say it does not always work (the clearing of the reserve lanyard from the housing).
There are lots of posts about this issue too.

Ripcord stops are black death.

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DiveMaker

[captain1976 0]

Reading Bills comments, I have to go with the success
of their use on the tandem rigs over that long period with millions of jumps. The testing period is over and the stats are out there as far as I'm concerned.
Regarding a previous post, I don't think saving money was a factor considering the small difference (whatever it is) in the Spectra vs metal, especially when compared to the cost of the rig.
Bills past achievements in this sport is all I need. I'm gettin' one.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[captain1976 0]

Bill, I just looked at the youtube video. When you were demonstrating the floating Spectra ripcord, it looks like that with the stretch in the cord, the ripcord actually can move further away from the housing than the metal housing allows. Has this been tested with freefall speeds it that the airflow can actually move it further away from the housing?

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[riggerpaul 1]

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Another disadvantage would be getting your reserve handle snagged on something exiting. If I understand correctly the spectra rip cord does not clear the housing when pulled. So you would have a reserve out and also possible be in tow with the aircraft, or is would tear the the housing off your rig.

The spectra ripcord is as likely to clear the housing as the stainless steel cable with the marine eye.

The little velcro sandwich tab on the Vector RSL and top flap is meant to help ensure that the pin doesn't get pulled up to the ripcord housing.

Doesn't always work, but the problem is not unique to the spectra ripcord at all.

But, currently, the reserve RC stop is unique to RWS/UPT rigs.

As you say it does not always work (the clearing of the reserve lanyard from the housing).
There are lots of posts about this issue too.

Ripcord stops are black death.

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You are really making me scratch my head here, because there is nothing that I'd call a ripcord stop on the Vector3, which is where the spectra ripcord might be used.

There is a possibility that the pin, which is attached to the RSL lanyard, may not come out of the eye on the end of the ripcord. That's no different on either the metal or the spectra ripcord.

That possibility is addressed by the velcro tabs that are intended to ensure that the pin comes out of the eye on the ripcord.

The post to which I responded stated that spectra ripcord was not designed to clear the housing, and that is simply incorrect. The design absolutely intends that either the steel or the spectra ripcord will clear the housing when you pull it.

I have never personally seen the steel ripcord fail to clear the housing. I have personal knowledge of several occasions where steel ripcords cleared the housings, as their design intended. I have heard stories that the pin can jam in the eye, so I mention that for completeness.

But what's any of that got to do with a ripcord stop?

It is absolutely the intent of the ripcord, steel or spectra, to clear the housing.

So, please explain why you say there is a ripcord stop on the Vector3.

Just look at the attachment you posted. The picture has a big lump on the ripcord that will actively prevent it from clearing the housing.

There is simply nothing like that on the ripcords of the Vector3.

[floormonkey 0]

I like the design. However, on the Sigma main handle, doesn't the design protect the spectra from UV and dirt/debris since the handle "sucks" backs in, effectively covering the spectra line and blocking the housing?

How is the spectra line protected from velcro wear from the reserve handle pocket should it somehow touch it? I can see it should never happen, but we all know how well skydivers maintain their equipment, especially when it is fool-proof.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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There is a possibility that the pin, which is attached to the RSL lanyard, may not come out of the eye on the end of the ripcord.

That is the RC stop.

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[riggerpaul 1]

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There is a possibility that the pin, which is attached to the RSL lanyard, may not come out of the eye on the end of the ripcord.

That is the RC stop.

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That's just not true.

If it was a ripcord stop, I would not be able to pull the ripcord out of the housing when I do a repack.

And I do that all the time.

If someone reading this has had a ripcord jam on a Vector3, please speak up.

Bill Booth, I know you read this forum, can you tell us if this is happening?

Jan, if you read the early posts on this thread, you'll see that I was one of the first to point out possible problems that I felt made the spectra ripcord not yet ready for the general public. I still have those same concerns. I don't have any need to use misinformation to bolster my position.

There is no ripcord stop on the Vector3.

The design of the system is that either sort of ripcord, steel or spectra, will clear the housing when you pull it.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Please remember that Spectra MAIN ripcords, going through exactly the same housings, have been used on thousands of Sigma tandem rigs, for millions of jumps, for eight (8) years now. No one has reported a single snag, and certainly no one has cut or broken one. I wouldn't have put this ripcord on a reserve without testing it very well as a main ripcord. By the way, a single ball swage, which is what most metal ripcords use, is only rated at 600 lbs. This make my Spectra ripcord almost twice a strong. Metal ripcords have served us well, but I believe Spectra ripcords are an improvement. Metal connector links also work well, but nearly everyone has gone to slinks. Only time will tell.

That's great that they work as a tandem main RC.
Tandems are not involved with canopy collisions or wraps with any great frequency. The last one I can think of was the one way back when that was a result of intentional tandem CRW.

Anyway, back to the point, a spectra reserve RC on a sport rig does have a possibility of getting cut by a hook knife or by lines from another canopy running across it. This is a foreseeable failure mode that has at least a remote probability and a catastrophic severity. That puts it at an undesirable risk level (according to MIL-STD 882).

People should be aware of hazards introduced by new products or 'improvements'. They should not get sidetracked by 'almost double the strength' feature that does not make any difference. I cannot think of any ball swages that have come off a metal RC. I do recall plastic RC handles shattering for some unfortunate people. And a lot of people still use metal connector links.

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[MakeItHappen 15]

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There is a possibility that the pin, which is attached to the RSL lanyard, may not come out of the eye on the end of the ripcord.

That is the RC stop.

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That's just not true.

If it was a ripcord stop, I would not be able to pull the ripcord out of the housing when I do a repack.

And I do that all the time.

If someone reading this has had a ripcord jam on a Vector3, please speak up.

Bill Booth, I know you read this forum, can you tell us if this is happening?

Jan, if you read the early posts on this thread, you'll see that I was one of the first to point out possible problems that I felt made the spectra ripcord not yet ready for the general public. I still have those same concerns. I don't have any need to use misinformation to bolster my position.

There is no ripcord stop on the Vector3.

The design of the system is that either sort of ripcord, steel or spectra, will clear the housing when you pull it.

Do a search on ripcord stop or pulling handles for a repack. There are several threads here that mention that the RSL pin was jammed against the housing with the RC eyelet still attached.

Here's one of those threads
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1009073
There are a couple of other threads that say the exact same thing from around that same time period.

The UPT RSL system does not always act as a RC stop, nor was it designed to do that, but sometimes it does.
The velcro is supposed to keep the RSL pin in place and allow it to rotate so that the eyelet clears the RSL pin.
But that does not always happen.

Here's a more recent thread explaining the situation http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3390225
and there are 3 different jumpers stating that they had RC stop effect.

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[KellyF 16]

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Are these ferrules installed during housing manufacture, or are they cut to length and "finished" by the container manufacturer?

It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer. We buy ours cut to length and finished, I think Jump Shack cuts and finishes their own (at least they used to), for example.

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[riggerpaul 1]

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There is a possibility that the pin, which is attached to the RSL lanyard, may not come out of the eye on the end of the ripcord.

That is the RC stop.

.

That's just not true.

If it was a ripcord stop, I would not be able to pull the ripcord out of the housing when I do a repack.

And I do that all the time.

If someone reading this has had a ripcord jam on a Vector3, please speak up.

Bill Booth, I know you read this forum, can you tell us if this is happening?

Jan, if you read the early posts on this thread, you'll see that I was one of the first to point out possible problems that I felt made the spectra ripcord not yet ready for the general public. I still have those same concerns. I don't have any need to use misinformation to bolster my position.

There is no ripcord stop on the Vector3.

The design of the system is that either sort of ripcord, steel or spectra, will clear the housing when you pull it.

Do a search on ripcord stop or pulling handles for a repack. There are several threads here that mention that the RSL pin was jammed against the housing with the RC eyelet still attached.

Here's one of those threads
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1009073
There are a couple of other threads that say the exact same thing from around that same time period.

The UPT RSL system does not always act as a RC stop, nor was it designed to do that, but sometimes it does.
The velcro is supposed to keep the RSL pin in place and allow it to rotate so that the eyelet clears the RSL pin.
But that does not always happen.

Here's a more recent thread explaining the situation http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3390225
and there are 3 different jumpers stating that they had RC stop effect.

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Yes, I have read these threads.

I am not disputing that these things have happened.

Councilman24 was quite clear in one of his posts that ripcord stops are banned. Ergo, the Vector3 does not have a ripcord stop.

The disconcerting mode of the Vector where the pin jams against the ripcord housing and you cannot pull the ripcord clear of the housing is quite different from the ripcord stops that were banned. In the case of the Vectors, the only way for it to happen is after the pin has been pulled out of the closing loop, and so the activation is already in progress. The banned ripcord stops had a nasty way of jamming before the pin had been pulled. These are not the same things at all.

The post to which I responded said that the spectra ripcord was not designed to clear the housing. That is not true. You are free to argue that the design fails in some cases, but that's not because it wasn't the intent of the design for the ripcord to clear the housing.

You said that the Vector3 has a ripcord stop. But this is also not literally true. Sometimes it might seem to act like the banned ripcord stop, but in truth, it does not. It lack the main problem of the ripcord stop, which was that the ripcord could stop before the pin was pulled. Just because the one reminds you of the other does not mean they are the same.

You might feel that the distinction between the two is not significant. But in skydiving, little distinctions can mean the all the difference in the world. So I try hard to be very clear. The ripcord stop is deadly and banned. The Vector RSL has its own foibles, as do all our rigs. But it is not fair to say that it has a ripcord stop when it does not.

[pchapman 261]

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It lack the main problem of the ripcord stop, which was that the ripcord could stop before the pin was pulled. Just because the one reminds you of the other does not mean they are the same.

You might feel that the distinction between the two is not significant. But in skydiving, little distinctions can mean the all the difference in the world.

Speaking of little distinctions, I think Jan's point was that anything that acts as a ripcord stop can leave a floating ripcord attached to the rig, that can catch on and entangle with things.

The problem of not being able to pull the pin out at all, I thought that was a more minor issue (because it really required screwing up the ripcord stop concept to have things go wrong)? I don't know that era well.

Ripcord stops sound worse when you have a belly mount with a mushy MA-1, but Jan has pointed out (on her website) that it was entanglement with departing main risers that was often the issue.

Personally I think Jan is overstating the ripcord stop issue for Vectors, but technically it is something that can be discussed.

[captain1976 0]

I guess Mr. Booth isn't going to answer my question about the floating ripcord. But I really think my question was a valid one. If anyone can comment, I would appreciate it.
When viewing the trade show interview conducted by Doug Spotted Eagle;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J_zE3eFdw

it really looks to me that the elasticity in the cord
can cause a floater to distance itself from the pocket at a much greater distance than the standard ripcord. Especially with the high wind speeds associated with free flying. Could be that this was tested as I have not actually pulled it myself, but the video shows it to be very easy.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[billbooth 10]

Hey, I was climbing a mountain...Give me a break. Anyway, the slack in the Spectra ripcord is about 3". This is the same slack we build into our steel cable ripcords. As to whether there is enough recoil to slop a floater in all high speed situations, at every body position, I doubt it. I had to keep the recoil force at about one pound so that the elastic would never pull the pin out by itself. However, this is enough to prevent a floater in MOST situations, which is something a standard steel cable system does in NO situations.
I never invent PERFECT solutions to problems. That's impossible. But I do try to invent BETTER solutions, which I believe the Spectra Recoil Ripcord is.

[hackish 8]

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Suppose that you were in a canopy collision (CRW, after opening or in the pattern). This is a plausible and unfortunately too common occurrence. You whip out your hook knife and start slashing lines wrapped around your body. Unbeknownst to you, your RC has been dislodged. And as fate would have it, the RC cable (whether spectra or metal) has wrapped around a line of the other guy's canopy.

We had a very good laugh at this at the DZ yesterday. If you're madly whipping your hookknife around you should be careful not to cut your reserve risers or legstraps too.

As Booth said 3". If you happen to slash your spectra reserve then with a steel one you would have probably hookknifed the cable and deployed the reserve into the mess anyway. Maybe once you're done your mad slashing your AAD could successfully deploy the reserve in this case. Unless of course you believe AADs are unsafe too.

-Michael

[d123 1]

Are you saying that if few lines are snagged over the reserve handle that has a metal chord and one is trying to cut the lines there's only one possibility (not probability) to happen and that's to deploy your reserve in the mess?

I'll say that the possibilities are more than one and their probabilities depends on the mind set of the person, the cutting strength needed to cut a snagged line from the main (that is now over the reserve handle) and the strength needed to deploy the reserve with the metal thingy. If those strength are tangible not the same to our jumper and if the person is in the right mental state he will feel a higher resistance when he snags the metal chord and say WTF? and he would take a look to see WTF. Altitude left will only change his mind set.

I also think that we're trying to kill a mosquito with a sledge hammer. I've never seen CRW guys having a cool container with all the cool gadgets. The reserve handle is rarely used. But I'm a person that jumped, I had my reserve handle getting out of the velcro and flapping around and I was fine. I've noticed only on landing and in that 1 min of flying nothing happen. It didn't felt wow this is soo bad because nothing happen in that minute. I've stop jumping till I fix the velcro but in my world having the reserve handle floating is not necessarily bad just something you want to avoid because it increases your chance of getting injured or killing someone. I've stopped jumping for this reason only. I have a small profile reserve handle with the metal thingy line.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[DougH 270]

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As Booth said 3". If you happen to slash your spectra reserve then with a steel one you would have probably hookknifed the cable and deployed the reserve into the mess anyway. Maybe once you're done your mad slashing your AAD could successfully deploy the reserve in this case. Unless of course you believe AADs are unsafe too.

-Michael

I still like that scenario better than a cut spectra rc, and a reserve container that I now can't open on my own accord!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P