Reserve Spectra Rip Cord

[erdnarob 1]

I have been waiting for it for more than 2 years now but I have it now on my equipment.
I first saw it at the February 2007 Reno PIA symposium. It is designed by UPT Vector. This is a reserve rip cord with a 1000 lbs spectra line (blue color) instead of a stainless steel cable.
Since I have a Vector III including a Skyhook, I had a typical D metal handle with a stainless steel cable terminated by a metal eyelet. The reserve pin is attached to the RSL and going thru the ripcord eyelet before locking the closing loop.
Now what is more simple than a Spectra line instead of a metal cable.
On the new ripcord, I still have the metal D handle and a Spectra line (blue color) which has a 2 loops at each end made with a fingertrap and secured by a bartack. At the D handle, the Spectra line is just attached with a larkhead knot while at the other end the loop is playing what the metal eyelet does to the pin in the all metal ripcord.

Advantages:
1) the metal cable breaking strength is 920 lbs while the Spectra line is rated at 1000 lbs
2) it's very easy and reassuring to check the structure of the Spectra ripcord since you just have to check the bartack at both ends.
3) according Bill Booth this ripcord when being pulled at angle with respect to the ripcord metal housing offers considerably less friction than a metal cable.
4) since at the middle of the ripcord there is an inside chock cord (bungee), the installed Spectra ripcord is very slightly under tension which means should the D handle be removed from its pocket, there will be no floating ripcord (like it's possible with a metal cable). The chock cord under some tension will keep the handle against the main lift web and the metal ripcord housing.

I would like to know if there are other skydivers having this type of ripcord and get the comments of all interested people.
SEE the pictures in attachment. Note: One can see on the third picture the slight bulge made by the chock cord inside the Spectra blue line.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[captain_stan 0]

A solution in search of a problem.

Good--now maybe we won't be breaking so many of those old metal ripcord assemblies.

And don't forget how much less these weigh.

[councilman24 36]

Like most of Bill's inventions, or should I say adaptations (I saw belly mount center pulls with line ripcords 25 years ago, unapproved), I expect that this will kill some people before all the bugs are worked out. Three rings, throw out PC's, skyhooks, etc have all required field use to find all of the bugs. Bill admits that until he starts selling it he can't think of everything.

To your specific advantages.

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Advantages:
1) the metal cable breaking strength is 920 lbs while the Spectra line is rated at 1000 lbs

I have never heard of a ripcord cable breaking. Pins badly forged and with poor materials, handles made of unreenforced plastic, unswaged pins and terminal balls coming off, but never the cable breaking. In contrast we all know line wears and breaks. Wear and tear on these are yet to be determined. It may very well be that the traditional ripcord ripcord housings, which I believe he is still using, may not be the right thing to use anymore. They have residual oil, which may have a detrimental effect on the line and can accumulate grit. Metal hose on line doesn't sound right to me.

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2) it's very easy and reassuring to check the structure of the Spectra ripcord since you just have to check the bartack at both ends.

Now we get to argue about how much wear is too much on a spectra ripcord. And whether is has degraded with age and exposure. See the thread on the reserve riser velcro damage for an example of that discussion. Hmm, hadn't thought of velcro damage to the spectra from the pocket velcro.

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3) according Bill Booth this ripcord when being pulled at angle with respect to the ripcord metal housing offers considerably less friction than a metal cable.

Hmmm, maybe, but how easily is that line cut or damaged in comparison to cable? Finding that burr on the end cap of the housing by having your ripcord handle come off in your hand isn't a good day. Yes, that's extreme. But we're having a discussion.

Quote

4) since at the middle of the ripcord there is an inside chock cord (bungee), the installed Spectra ripcord is very slightly under tension which means should the D handle be removed from its pocket, there will be no floating ripcord (like it's possible with a metal cable). The chock cord under some tension will keep the handle against the main lift web and the metal ripcord housing.

Now we have something else to consider in terms of service life and maintainence. We all know bungee ages fairly rapidly. How often will this ripcord need to be replaced due to the bungee breaking or losing it's elasticity? How will we tell? I certainly wouldn't expect it to last the life of the rig as I do a normal ripcord. As to the floating ripcord. There not very common anymore. And when they used to be common it was usually the well used MAIN ripcord. Dealing with it is not a big deal if you kept you head. Especially for us old farts that have had to deal with it on a main. The bungee won't keep a floating handle from tucking under a main lift web or flipping up or back out of place.

And if the handle DOES come off the bungee sucks the line back into the housing. Unlike broken plastic handles from the old days you no longer have a cable and ball to pull. Has that ever been done? I'm not sure if it has with nothing on the end except the ball but I do know first hand of a friend that pulled a cable after the plastic martin baker handle broke and only left the square end that was in the elastic pocket. This was in the 80's long before very many experienced jumpers (and this jumper) had AAD's.

The REAL advantage? Costs Bill a few cents to make instead of serveral/many dollars. As said by Bill at the same symposium. Not that I'm against Bill making money. But this does seem like a solution looking for a problem driven by costs of manufacturing.

There may be some advantage other than cost. But I see more issues than advantages. We'll let the test jumping customers let us know.

I've never liked Bill RSL anyway. It requires a larger ripcord housing to pass the eye, the stamped pins are thicker and harder to use, and the pin CAN act like a ripcord stop. Pulling directly on the pin isn't bad, but I'm not sure it's worth the compromises on the ripcord. And the spectra ripcord is only going to be useful on Bill's rigs with this RSL. I doubt it could ever be trusted on a pull the cable with a ring type RSL.

Question, IIRC Bill uses this on the Sigma drogue release. I don't know for sure because we don't have any Sigmas or even Vector tandems around here. IF so, does he use a regular ripcord housing? Just wonder if we have experience with that.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JohnRich 4]

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...since at the middle of the ripcord there is an inside chock cord (bungee)...
The chock cord under some tension will keep the handle against the main lift web...

"Chock" cord should be called "shock" cord.

[erdnarob 1]

Thanks for that, I just missed it. I am not "shocked" by your remarks.

Now for Terry, thanks for your feeback. This is what I wanted. I don't expect the Spectra of this ripcord to wear rapidely since "normally" you don't use it. Also the pin used with the Skyhook is quite thicker than the typical reserve pin which can bend quite easily when too much tension is applied. The Skyhook metal pin is not swaged since it has a loop all forged together, I like it better but because of the metal loop this pin will not pass into the housing and is not meant to do it. That's why it takes a loop or an eyelet to pull the pin out of the closing loop.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[councilman24 36]

But you've been around long enough to remember when ripcord stops killed people. Or course that was on mains. A ripcord stop on a reserve isn't quite so bad since your using your last hope anyway. But still....

The velcro next the pin is supposed to make the pin rotate and the ripcord, metal or spectra, to come out of the eye ripcord eye allowing the ripcord to be fully extracted. It doesn't always work.

I just don't see the advantage to a two piece reserve ricord, now three with the separate spectra and handle or a pin that won't go through a housing. When I had a reserve total the first thing I did was finish pulling the cable of the housing and look at the pins to make sure it was pulled.

And Bill used to be the biggest opponent of RSL's in the industry. Until he had something different to market. Somewhere I have his white paper against them.

Granted the ripcord pin is vunerable. But Sherman's solved that, right?

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[skydiverek 54]

Terry,

Here is a good video that has answerrs to many of your questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J_zE3eFdw&fmt=18

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

(I saw belly mount center pulls with line ripcords 25 years ago, unapproved),

Jim Handbury had a TSO’d rig with a reserve ripcord made of Kevlar. This was in the late 70’s and early 80’s.

Einstein is dead, there are no new ideas.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[councilman24 36]

I'd forgotten that. (See sig line.) The one I was referring to was anything but TSO'd.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[erdnarob 1]

I knew and like this video especially when the guy at the right talking with Bill Booth when he demonstrates the Skyhook at the beginning of the video is myself (with the Lacoste T-Shirt). The Spectra ripcord Bill is showing in this video is not different from the one I have.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[erdnarob 1]

Hello again. You are right about the reserve cable eyelet being stopped generally by the reserve pin at the housing. But when that happens, the pin has already cleared the reserve closing loop by a distance of about 5" on my rig (see the picture SPECTRA RC4) and the reserve pilot chute is gone anyway. Because of the equipment of the past I am used to have the reserve cable being completely clear of its housing when being pulled but after the pin has cleared the closing loop by 5" what is the difference. I had two totals with the Skyhook and each time I was surprised (for one second) by the fact the ripcord couldn't be pulled out of its housing completely but my reserve was fully open when I looked up and obviously the bridle cord had been released from the Skyhook RSL.
I remember the ban on cable stops but I remember also when the end of the cable housing was flush to the pin (on some rig) near the closing loop. Cable stops were certainly a potential problem in that type of configuration (of the past) but couldn't represent a problem when the distance between the end of the housing and the pin/closing loop is more than (theoritically) the distance of the pin motion to clear the closing loop (about one inch).

I understand that the little piece of velcro near the pin is supposed to make the pin pivot and clear the eyelet. It does it when the cable is pulled slowly.

Now back to the Spectra ripcord. The debate is a bit similar to the SLINKS use. We have had metal links for so long which makes them part of our habit. But more and more people have SLINKS on their main and reserve as well now and new habits have been adopted. Even PD put the Slinks on main and reserve as standard equipment unless you ask them to do otherwise. The shock cord on a Spectra ripcord is inside the Spectra line and held with 2 bartacks. If the shock cord breaks the Spectra cord has still its full strength.

Reserve bridles are attached to the pilot chute with a larkhead knot just like the Spectra ripcord is attached to handle (see on picture SPECTRA RC5, 6 and 7). Then where is the problem. We can check easily a bartack but we cannot check as a jumper the actual resistance of the swaging both for the ball and the pin of the reserve cable.

On picture SPECTRA RC5 you can see the Spectra ripcord installed with reserve handle in its pocket and because of a little tension due to the shock cord nothing is protruding and in contact with the pocket velcro at all.

On picture SPECTRA RC6 you can see that the handle is out of its pocket and there is some tension applied (actually measured at half a pound).

On picture SPECTRA RC7 you can see that when the ripcord is out of is pocket and released it stays against the housing therefore it can be reached easily unless a floating all metal ripcord.

Thanks everybody for your comments.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[Cambalectri 0]

Thanks for all the facts and particularly your images of the Spectra Ripcord from UPT. At the beginning, I was doubtful , especially concerned with a spectra line going through a metal housing and also the tension on the ripcord itself, because of the shock cord, encased in the middle of the line. After seeing one, I have to say, it's simple, clean, and well made.

Having a Skyhook on my V3, I like the idea that with the Spectra ripcord, the ripcord could go completly through the metal housing , giving you a certain peace of mind and lastly , no more worries about the swaging at both ends of the metal riprord, but I know, it's slightly unreasonable, since, I believe, (?) metal ripcords are '' put to the test '' , with a 300 lbs load for 3 seconds ...
Would I purchase a Spectra ripcord, possibly...

[riggerpaul 1]

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Now back to the Spectra ripcord. The debate is a bit similar to the SLINKS use. We have had metal links for so long which makes them part of our habit. But more and more people have SLINKS on their main and reserve as well now and new habits have been adopted. Even PD put the Slinks on main and reserve as standard equipment unless you ask them to do otherwise. The shock cord on a Spectra ripcord is inside the Spectra line and held with 2 bartacks. If the shock cord breaks the Spectra cord has still its full strength.

Hi Andre,

Nice to talk with you again.

A cannot agree that the Slink debate is that much similar to this discussion.

Slinks don't generally come in contact with a whole lot of metal, and when they might, you can see the affected area with very little difficulty. And Slinks are not generally something that has to move to function or be checked.

The Spectra ripcord will be in a metal housing that could have a burr in an invisible area. Such a burr would have little immediate effect on a stainless aircraft cable ripcord, but could spell disaster for a Spectra ripcord.

The Spectra ripcord will get a lot more exercise as people are doing gear checks and the like, and a problem inside the housing will not be visible at all. The only person who might see the damage would be a rigger doing a repack, and that could be up to about 6 months away.

Another thing that makes me wonder is the whole issue of tension on the internal bungee when the system is at rest. Does this mean I will have to use some sort of tool to pull it through the housing when I am repacking a rig equipped with this ripcord? What dangers does this present to the condition of the housing?

I don't mean to say that the Spectra ripcord couldn't be a good thing. I'm mostly saying that I don't agree with comparing it to the Slink.

Now, I'm the first to admit that conventional ripcords have their problems too. But those issues are pretty well known by now.

With the Spectra ripcord, you are the test pilot at this point. We'll find the problems when these things get to the field. The earliest Skyhooks have had changes to make them better. I am fairly certain that the Spectra ripcord will have similar refinements over time. In the meantime, vigilance beyond that required by a conventional cable ripcord will certainly be in order. Now, you being a rigger and all, might be well suited to the task of field evaluation of this new technology. But I am not so sure that the run-of-the-mill jumper should be burdened with that task.

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Paul. Thanks a lot for your concern about the Spectra ripcord. When I compared the Spectra RC issue with the Slinks one, I know they are different in function but the similarity is that in both cases the metal has been changed for synthetic fiber. You know, the parachute industry is not the only one to make such changes. In modern aircrafts, both civilian and military ones, a considerable amount of parts are now made with composite material including synthetic fiber and I am not talking about the passenger's seats but about parts of wings, horizontal stabilizer and rudder ...etc.

I know quite well the metal ripcord swaging since I have designed and built a press to do so. I even have designed and built a "machine" to test the cable/ball/pin assembly and have witnessed the test on 3 ripcords which the swaging have been made by that press and this at a National aeronautical laboratories (NRC) in Ottawa Canada and the 3 tests have been successful (300 lbs for 3 seconds). This to say that making a ricord all in metal is not that simple. For instance at the tests pushed at the limits, the cable finally broke at the weak point near the ball or pin where the cable starts to be squeezed. Never the ball or the pin started slipping at any time. Now if the swaging is too "hard" the weak point can allow the cable to break quite before the cable rating of 920 lbs.

That being said I know that Bill Booth didn't put on the market something not well tested. The fact it took more than 2 years to get the TSO on that ripcord shows how it is difficult to change something established for more than 70 years ie. The all metal ripcord.

You just have to see an actual one (Spectra RC) and touch it to begin to understand that the Spectra ripcord is not a fluke. The Spectra ripcord from UPT Vector is both supple and stiff enough to be put in the housing without any problem (or being removed without any tool). As I mentioned in another post, it is even easier to install the Spectra ripcord than the all metal one which very often get stuck in the housing at the shoulder level. Now for the possibility to get a burr, it is a serious issue if there is any. Count on me to test that on my rig. What I am going to do when back from the Summerfest at SDC is to remove the Spectra ripcord and replace it (for testing purpose) with a new piece of Spectra line and move it alternatively by pulling at both ends 100, 200 or more times and check if there is any damage. This is the way to verify if there is a burr somewhere inside. I will tell you about it. Thanks for the idea. I have done that kind of simple test on the AAD's cutter hole to see if the loop was being damaged by a possible burr. So far everything was OK.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[JackC 0]

I've ordered a Vector that will come with the Spectra reserve rip cord. If the thing works at it is supposed to, I can't see much of a downside except the possibility of chafing inside the housing that could not be seen from an external inspection. If the pin will not pass through the housing, is it possible to remove the ripcord from the housing for inspection purposes? Or can you only see as much as you can pull through each end?

[riggerrob 558]

That being said I know that Bill Booth didn't put on the market something not well tested. The fact it took more than 2 years to get the TSO on that ripcord shows how it is difficult to change something established for more than 70 years ie. The all metal ripcord.

.........................................................................

Also remember that Booth did extensive (since 2001) field testing of Spectra main ripcords (er ... drouge releases) on Sigmas before introducing reserve ripcords made of similar materials.
During PIA 2009, Booth said: "It takes about a year to learn the major bugs in a main design and about five years to learn all the bugs in a reserve design ..." because reserves get used far less often.

[riggerrob 558]

UPT uses large diameter MIL-SPEC ripcord housings on their reserves that are compatible with Spectra ripcords.
These large-diameter housings are a hang-over from the larger, metal, swaged fittings on Vector 2 ripcords - that used the earlier curved metal pins on the end of an RSL.
Inside diameter is less important with Spectra, but smoothness becomes more important.
The big advantage (excuse the pun) is the large, smooth radius on the inside of MIL-Spec housing ferrules.
Most, smaller diameter civilian ferrules have much rougher edges inside.
My fear is that other manufacturers will try to copy Booth's Spectra ripcords, but with rough ferrules.

As Sandy Reid likes to say: "If you don't understand something, copy it exactly."

[councilman24 36]

Quote

That being said I know that Bill Booth didn't put on the market something not well tested. The fact it took more than 2 years to get the TSO on that ripcord shows how it is difficult to change something established for more than 70 years ie. The all metal ripcord.

IMHO NOTHING Bill Booth has put on the market has been tested well enough. Not his fault, too expensive to do. Throw out pilot chutes? Belly bands, front of leg strap, rear of leg strap, straight pin, bight of bridle through bungee closing loop, various curved pins, AH HA! BOC and curved pin. In fairness not all Bill's progression.



PIA Symposium...paraphrased Booth "We are not done testing the skyhook for sport rigs, We haven't tested it spining forward because spinning a canopy intentionally is usually backward." Entire room.. "Put the main on backwards!" At the same time sales is asking a customer if he wants the skyhook added to his rig.

And there seems to be a service bulletin out on the collins lanyard and a bag retainer system.

Even Bill says nothing is fully tested until it's out in the field.

I like Bill, but repeat after me... BILL BOOTH IS NOT GOD.


(Oh the heresey of it all!)

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billbooth 10]

Quote

Quote

That being said I know that Bill Booth didn't put on the market something not well tested. The fact it took more than 2 years to get the TSO on that ripcord shows how it is difficult to change something established for more than 70 years ie. The all metal ripcord.

IMHO NOTHING Bill Booth has put on the market has been tested well enough. Not his fault, too expensive to do. Throw out pilot chutes? Belly bands, front of leg strap, rear of leg strap, straight pin, bight of bridle through bungee closing loop, various curved pins, AH HA! BOC and curved pin. In fairness not all Bill's progression.



PIA Symposium...paraphrased Booth "We are not done testing the skyhook for sport rigs, We haven't tested it spining forward because spinning a canopy intentionally is usually backward." Entire room.. "Put the main on backwards!" At the same time sales is asking a customer if he wants the skyhook added to his rig.

And there seems to be a service bulletin out on the collins lanyard and a bag retainer system.

Even Bill says nothing is fully tested until it's out in the field.

I like Bill, but repeat after me... BILL BOOTH IS NOT GOD.

Bless you, my child.

GOD
(Oh the heresey of it all!)

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

The fact it took more than 2 years to get the TSO on that ripcord shows how it is difficult to change something established for more than 70 years ie. The all metal ripcord.

With out a TSO, it hasn't been out in the field being put through all the shit a knucklehead skydiver can come up with.

My basic rule of thumb with new stuff...... wait a year or two to see the bugs worked out.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[erdnarob 1]

I have your answer JackC.

I have made a test when a friend of mine has decided to install a Spectra rip cord on his Vector III after seeing mine and being convinced. Since I am his rigger he and I decided to find out about the chafing of the line inside the metal housing. See the pictures.

Note. For the test I didn't have a Spectra line available but I used a Kevlar line of about the same thickness. Kelvlar is known to be very strong but quite sensitive to abrasion by chafing. It was even better in a way to use Kevlar since should the chafing cause it to get frayed it would be seen quite earlier than Spectra. My friend and I did together 100 cycles of pulling fore and aft the Kevlar line alternatively which makes a total of 200 moves in all possible angles and keeping the tension at a couple of pounds. We installed the Kevlar line into the housing and marked it in blue at the 2 ends at about 2 inches from the housing ending and at both sides. See pictures.

1) Kevlar line at the reserve container side
2) Kevlar line at the reserve handle side
3) Kevlar line with the 2 blue marks at both sides
4) Kevlar line after the test with the 2 blue marks

Conclusion: I was expecting to see some of the part between the 2 marks and just near them slightly frayed after such a chafing of 200 moves with tension and different angles of the line with respect to to the housing. Nothing like that happened. What you see is just the fibers which have been squeezed or tighten and some dark mark from the contact with the metal (which by the way made of brass). The parts of the Kevlar line which have been chafed are at the left of the blue marks

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[hackish 8]

I wonder if a nylon sleeve inside the housing would improve the friction issue and mitigate the chances of the piece coming in contact with a metal burr. I have never seen a housing cut apart so I really don't know how they're made or what the chances are that a bur could possibly be inside.

I like the UPT and PD products precisely because they are tested a lot. I've been considering getting a spectra reserve cord for my replacement rig.

-Michael

[erdnarob 1]

Hi Hackish, a ripcord housing or yellow cable guide or Vector III anti twist channel are all made the same way. It is a band of brass rolled in a spiral with the edges curved inside and pressed together. That technology allows the tube to be both flexible and extensible. There is no possibility of burr inside because of the way it is made. The 2 ending inserts are made of brass as well and I guess if they are not well installed and swaged can have the possibility of a burr which was certainely not the case in my experiment. A fellow jumper asked me to order a Spectra rip cord for his Vector III. When I will install this new ripcord, I will repeat the chafing testing.
Now lets be realistic, I have submitted the Kevlar line to friction that will never be encountered in 20+ years on an actual rig used every weekend. Remember that every 6 months a rigger will have a look at it.
Lets go Hackish, time to jump in new technologies and avoid to miss the turn toward the future.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[floormonkey 0]

Just to clarify...every 180 days in the US, a rigger SHOULD look at it.

Not all rigs are in the US, not all countries have the same repack cycle, and not all rigger's inspections are equal.

Who will educate ALL the riggers in the field as to what to look for?

[hackish 8]

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Who will educate ALL the riggers in the field as to what to look for?

Riggers should work to keep themselves current and that's one thing I use this forum for. Every time I'm in Florida I try to visit some place and chat with a local rigger/manufacturer and maybe even pack a reserve with them if the weather permits. It's all about continuing education.

-Michael