Rigs for Big Guys

[slcooper 0]

Im looking for some advice about canopy size/rigs for a big guy. I'm 6'2" and weigh around 240. I plan to get my A license in the next couple of weeks and will be buying some gear, most likely used. Any help would be appreciated!

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!

[riggerrob 558]

Most harness/container manufacturers will cheerfully build you a custom-sized harness. Just ask your local rigger which pattern he prefers packing.
... and most reserve canopy manufacturers (Aerodyne, Performance Designs, etc.) already have stock patterns that will land you softly.

On the legal side, the challenge is finding equipment certified for more than 254 pounds (exit weight including human, canopies, helmet, goggles, and all other equipment) that limits you to equipment certified under the original Technical Standard Order C23B (Vector and Racer) - which had no upper weight limit or TSO C23D (Reflex, Wings, etc.).

[erdnarob 1]

Well there is not many harness/container systems for 6'2" big guys around. Same for very small size. If buying new the size is not a problem for the manufacturer. For the canopies you have many size suitable for you. I suggest you to have a Sabre 2. Since you are a beginner I would say a Sabre 2-210 or 190 but try first a ZP 230 canopy. When your instructor is satified with your landing procedures go ahead. If you like to be just comfortable buy a Sabre 2-230.
For your information, I am myself a big guy with similar weigth with many years of experience and I am jumping a PD ZP canopy-170.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[slcooper 0]

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Well there is not many harness/container systems for 6'2" big guys around. Same for very small size. If buying new the size is not a problem for the manufacturer. For the canopies you have many size suitable for you. I suggest you to have a Sabre 2. Since you are a beginner I would say a Sabre 2-210 or 190 but try first a ZP 230 canopy. When your instructor is satified with your landing procedures go ahead. If you like to be just comfortable buy a Sabre 2-230.
For your information, I am myself a big guy with similar weigth with many years of experience and I am jumping a PD ZP canopy-170.

You are obviously a swooper, an art I admire and hope to someday participate in, when I'm ready. In the meantime, I'm looking for something that is going to be forgiving if my flare isn't perfect, and also fun, do you still recommend such a high wing loading? The reason I'm looking for used gear is so I can downsize later when the time is right, don't want to push it. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, just trying to learn.

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!

[captain_stan 0]

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On the legal side, the challenge is finding equipment certified for more than 254 pounds

This is not a legal issue with the FAA in the US. As prudent as it may be to consider these specifications, there is no FAR to prohibit a skydiver from exceeding these. The TSO weight specification does not mean the system will fail when exceeded, merely that this is the extent to which it has been tested. The OP's gear-up weight will exceed 254 lbs, but not by much. Caution is certainly appropriate if specs. are to be exceeded.

[likestojump 3]

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On the legal side, the challenge is finding equipment certified for more than 254 pounds

This is not a legal issue with the FAA in the US. As prudent as it may be to consider these specifications, there is no FAR to prohibit a skydiver from exceeding these. The TSO weight specification does not mean the system will fail when exceeded, merely that this is the extent to which it has been tested. The OP's gear-up weight will exceed 254 lbs, but not by much. Caution is certainly appropriate if specs. are to be exceeded.

huh ? My understanding is that the problem is purely legal. If you are operating outside the TSO limit, you are braking the FAR, that's how I understood it. Similar to getting an STC, but hillbillifying the work - it will be an FAR violation.

Am I wrong ?

[captain_stan 0]

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huh ? My understanding is that the problem is purely legal. If you are operating outside the TSO limit, you are braking the FAR, that's how I understood it. Similar to getting an STC, but hillbillifying the work - it will be an FAR violation.

Am I wrong ?

Do your homework and cite the FAR. Speculation is "hillbilly."

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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huh ? My understanding is that the problem is purely legal. If you are operating outside the TSO limit, you are braking the FAR, that's how I understood it. Similar to getting an STC, but hillbillifying the work - it will be an FAR violation.

Am I wrong ?

Do your homework and cite the FAR. Speculation is "hillbilly."

105.43 - "No person may conduct a parachute operation...unless that system has at least...one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container..."

Going over TSO weight is going outside "approval", isn't it?

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[captain_stan 0]

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one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container..."

Going over TSO weight is going outside "approval", isn't it?

The FAA "approves" parachutes, not skydivers. A parachute is either "approved" for use, or it is not.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container..."

Going over TSO weight is going outside "approval", isn't it?

The FAA "approves" parachutes, not skydivers. A parachute is either "approved" for use, or it is not.

But isn't the approval limited to operating within the TSO?
The FAA approves airplanes, but operating over max gross weight is a violation of the FARs, wouldn't operating a parachute over TSO max weight be the same thing?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to get my facts straight.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

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one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container..."

Going over TSO weight is going outside "approval", isn't it?

The FAA "approves" parachutes, not skydivers. A parachute is either "approved" for use, or it is not.

But isn't the approval limited to operating within the TSO?
The FAA approves airplanes, but operating over max gross weight is a violation of the FARs, wouldn't operating a parachute over TSO max weight be the same thing?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to get my facts straight.

................................................................................................

You got your facts straight.
Any time you operate a parachute, helicopter, airliner, etc. over-weight or over-speed, you are violating a manufacturer's limit and are also violating a Federal Air Regulation, because FARs link back to manufacturer's instructions, which link back to FARs, etc.

On a practical note: most new parachutes can exceed manufacturer's limits - for a little bit, for a little while - but in the long run, exceeding manufacturer's limits will get you hurt and accident investigators will conclude that blame lies with the "dumb shit" who exceeded manufacturer's limits.

Why we are wasting time with "barracks lawyering" is a mystery to me because Aerodyne, Jump Shack, Strong, Sun Path, Sun Rise, United Parachute Technologies, etc can all legally build you a harness certified for more than 254 pounds.
Meanwhile, Free Flight, Jump Shack, Performance Designs, Precision, Strong, etc. can all legally build reserve canopies certified for more than 254 pounds.
Maybe some one just enjoys "barracks lawyering?"???

Rob Warner
FAA Master Parachute Rigger
Canadian Rigger Instructor
Strong Tandem Examiner
Private Pilot

[captain_stan 0]

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But isn't the approval limited to operating within the TSO?
The FAA approves airplanes, but operating over max gross weight is a violation of the FARs, wouldn't operating a parachute over TSO max weight be the same thing?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I just want to get my facts straight.

I appreciate that Joe, and appologize for being under-qualified to comment on FARs for certificated pilots.

I'm sure that specific FARs do indeed regulate the conduct of pilots. A pilot who violates an FAR as in your example may be subject to enforcement and disciplinary action because of his conduct.

However, FAR sec. 105 that regulates the conduct of skydivers doesn't include any requiremt for adherance to TSO-label max weight and airspeed, only that H/C and one canopy must be approved. There's no language that indicates these become "unaproved" if the weight and airspeed specifications are exceeded.

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from FAR part 105:
For the purposes of this part—
Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured
under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order
(C-23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute
(other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified
by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-
Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or
any other military designation or specification number.

[captain_stan 0]

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Any time you operate a parachute, helicopter, airliner, etc. over-weight or over-speed, you are violating a manufacturer's limit and are also violating a Federal Air Regulation, because FARs link back to manufacturer's instructions, which link back to FARs, etc.

What? "Any time you operate a parachute?" A "barracks lawyer" might say that if he didn't actually read the FARs. FYI, part 65 certainly requires us to maintain approved parachutes within the mfr's "procedures," but does not regulate their actual use. It's part 105 that regulates the use of the equipment, and no such restriction is to be found in 105.

Master and Senior Riggers both have taken the same writen test on FARs. We are responsible to know something about these. It doen't require any kind of lawyer to read these, and I think it's inappropriate to bash anyone for taking interest in them.

[erdnarob 1]

This is why I mentioned the Sabre 2-230 if you want to be "comfortable". I know very well about the gear "limitations". As somebody mentioned it, the rationale is the legal aspect which I can understand. Lets put it this way, I prefer to see an intermediate jumper jumping a ZP canopy 190 with a good briefing and having had practice on a ZP 210 before successfully than letting him jump a ZP 230 and leave the jumper alone. OTOH having a big parachute will not solve the lack of brienfing or practice.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Well there is not many harness/container systems for 6'2" big guys around. Same for very small size. If buying new the size is not a problem for the manufacturer. For the canopies you have many size suitable for you. I suggest you to have a Sabre 2. Since you are a beginner I would say a Sabre 2-210 or 190 but try first a ZP 230 canopy. When your instructor is satified with your landing procedures go ahead. If you like to be just comfortable buy a Sabre 2-230.
For your information, I am myself a big guy with similar weigth with many years of experience and I am jumping a PD ZP canopy-170.

A 190 would be inappropriate prior to the 300 jump mark and not legal to jump in some countries with the original poster's experience level. 210 200 jumps. A 230 would be a fine starting point on which to learn skills like flat turns, flare turns, down-wind landings, and cross-wind landings since you need those skills to save your life (or at least bones).

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

[humanflite 0]

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Well there is not many harness/container systems for 6'2" big guys around. Same for very small size. If buying new the size is not a problem for the manufacturer. For the canopies you have many size suitable for you. I suggest you to have a Sabre 2. Since you are a beginner I would say a Sabre 2-210 or 190 but try first a ZP 230 canopy. When your instructor is satified with your landing procedures go ahead. If you like to be just comfortable buy a Sabre 2-230.
For your information, I am myself a big guy with similar weigth with many years of experience and I am jumping a PD ZP canopy-170.

A 190 would be inappropriate prior to the 300 jump mark and not legal to jump in some countries with the original poster's experience level. 210 200 jumps. A 230 would be a fine starting point on which to learn skills like flat turns, flare turns, down-wind landings, and cross-wind landings since you need those skills to save your life (or at least bones).

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Bingo!
A 190 would put him at almost 1.4 wing loading when exit weight is used.
A dangerous combination for sub 300 jumps

[slcooper 0]

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Well there is not many harness/container systems for 6'2" big guys around. Same for very small size. If buying new the size is not a problem for the manufacturer. For the canopies you have many size suitable for you. I suggest you to have a Sabre 2. Since you are a beginner I would say a Sabre 2-210 or 190 but try first a ZP 230 canopy. When your instructor is satified with your landing procedures go ahead. If you like to be just comfortable buy a Sabre 2-230.
For your information, I am myself a big guy with similar weigth with many years of experience and I am jumping a PD ZP canopy-170.

A 190 would be inappropriate prior to the 300 jump mark and not legal to jump in some countries with the original poster's experience level. 210 200 jumps. A 230 would be a fine starting point on which to learn skills like flat turns, flare turns, down-wind landings, and cross-wind landings since you need those skills to save your life (or at least bones).

http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf

Thanks! That's a very helpful link!

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!

[jumpwally 0]

? What ? Every month a see a big boy rig in the classifieds.... There are a couple of good ones in there right now !

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[slcooper 0]

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? What ? Every month a see a big boy rig in the classifieds.... There are a couple of good ones in there right now !

I bought one of those rigs, it's on the way here from Canada. Javelin container, Spectre 230 main. If my rigger says all looks good I'm going to jump it next weekend. I jumped a 280 until my 29th jump last weekend. I'm a little concerned with downsizing from a 280 to 230 so quickly. I tried a 260 on my last jump. It did seem to come in quite a bit faster than the 280 but I had a nice soft standup landing in no wind. I really don't want to keep renting student gear especially after my rig gets here. Any advice?

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!

[dks13827 2]

hopefully you will have some wind on your first few jumps with your new rig.......... that should help if you do.

[wmw999 2,116]

If you need wind to land safely, it's the wrong gear.

Keep jumping the 260 until it doesn't feel so fast, even if you already have your own gear. Then you can talk to one of the instructors about moving to your rig. You're by no means guaranteed days with some wind at Spaceland. And learn to PLF well -- it's a great skill to have.

Another option would be to rent a 260 (just the canopy) and put it into your container if it will fit until you are ready for the 230. There may be one in the gear shop lying around; it's free to ask.

Skydiving is an endurance sport, not a race. It takes much longer to come back from an injury than it does to downsize right in the first place.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[2shay 0]

I bout 6'1" bout 235 right now cause I like to drink beer and eat food lol. I like my vector 3 its totally safe for any and all flying and the harness fits good even though it was not sized specifically to me. I would say maybe a 260 sf canopy not sure on the sizing as to what the manufacturers actually make. Pd makes the spectre or strom both have great reviews and should be pretty gentle as far as good openings and soft landings for you. Reserve, always go pd in my opinion, they make good reserves. cypress1 or 2 for aad I have seen many using argus without complaints, but they have not been out near as long as cypress.

don't try your bullshit with me!!!

[heavydude 0]

I am real similar to your profile; when I got off student status at perris I went from Nav 280 to Triathlon 260. Triathlon 260 is a nice chute, always opens nice. I also use a PD253 as a reserve chute.
As a old dude I am not really worried about downsizing, just keeping knees from wearing out during ocassional crappy landing.

[elton01 0]

Whatever you decide to buy, try to get something with the large ring (type 8 riser). You can always put on a set of type 17 mini risers on the larger ring, but you can't put on a set of type 8 risers on a mini ring.
I'm 300 lbs out the door, and I'm going to try the mini risers so I'm able to pull the slider down on my Xfire2, but if I see that the rings are deforming at all, or my risers are trash after a couple of hundred jumps, then I'm secure in the knowledge I can always put on a set of type 8 risers and carry on. Even if I can't put the slider down.
You might already be aware of this, if so, then disregard

[slcooper 0]

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If you need wind to land safely, it's the wrong gear.

Keep jumping the 260 until it doesn't feel so fast, even if you already have your own gear. Then you can talk to one of the instructors about moving to your rig. You're by no means guaranteed days with some wind at Spaceland. And learn to PLF well -- it's a great skill to have.

Another option would be to rent a 260 (just the canopy) and put it into your container if it will fit until you are ready for the 230. There may be one in the gear shop lying around; it's free to ask.

Skydiving is an endurance sport, not a race. It takes much longer to come back from an injury than it does to downsize right in the first place.

Wendy P.

A 260 will not fit in the container. I downsized to a 230 student rig last weekend at a boogie, had 6 jumps on it with little or no wind, all stand up landings. I'm ready to start jumping my rig but there is some concern at my DZ about my reserve, it's a PD 218. Is this too small? Should I consider buying a larger reserve?

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!