BrianM 1 #26 July 23, 2009 QuoteWhen part numbers are given a suffix of "A" there is usually a reason. ... except that CR123A is not a part number, it is a battery "size", specifying the shape, terminal layout, and voltage of the battery. It does not specify the chemistry (in this case I believe it actually does specifically mean a lithium battery, but there are different chemistries used in lithium batteries), construction type, capacity, etc. You could have two batteries that are both labelled CR123A, and they will both fit in your device and provide the correct voltage, but they could be very different batteries. The A in CR123A is a reference to the battery being 1x2/3 the size of an A battery. When Aviacom specifies a CR123A battery, all that really tells us is that we need a 3V lithium battery of a certain size and shape. I don't know what "cfr specs TS120" is. I googled it but haven't found anything."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #27 July 23, 2009 Quote... except that CR123A is not a part number, it is a battery "size", specifying the shape, terminal layout, and voltage of the battery... Darn, a little bit more time with Mr. Google and I might have found that out too. For the technically inclined:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ficus 0 #28 July 24, 2009 QuoteI don't know what "cfr specs TS120" is. I googled it but haven't found anything. PIA TS-120 is "AAD Design and Testing Report Format". http://www.pia.com/piapubs/TSDocuments/ts-120a.pdf (How hilarious is it that the filename in that URL is ts-120a.pdf?) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #29 July 24, 2009 No, and I think some of the other people here would agree, it is NOT very clear. What does all that mean?? Can you put it into laymen's term or just say yes or no. The CR123's that I have are identical in size shape and voltage, and, the manufacturer of the batteriy says that they are a compatible battery to the CR123A, so can they be used legally? Will Aviacom stand-by their product if the batteries inside their AAD are LABELED CR123 instead of CR123A? I'm not arguing because I want to use the batteries. I would just like the discrepencies between the 2 manufacturers to be cleared up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #30 July 25, 2009 Still looking for an answer. Anybody? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #31 July 25, 2009 CR123A C -> Cylindrical R -> Lithium 123A -> 1x 2/3 A (2/3 the size of an A cell) IEC name: CR17345 (Lithium) CR -> Cylindrical Lithium (presumably) 17 -> 17 mm diameter 345 -> 34.5 mm length Some companies have different numbers for this cell. For example Energizer: EL123A (EEnergizer Lithium 1x 2/3 A) Duracell: DL123A (Duracell Lithium 1x 2/3 A) Some model numbers for these primary cells: CR123, CR123A, CR123-A, CR-123A, CR-123, EL123, DL-123, DL-123AB, 123-SANYO, DL123A, EL123A, K123LA, CR17345, EL123AP, SF123A1, VL123A These cells are (typically) ridiculously expensive in brick & mortar stores, but can be found at reasonable prices ($1-$2 per cell) online from many retailers (e.g Battery Junction, Battery Station). They are a very common cell size for high powered handheld flashlights such as SureFire. They have a ten year shelf life. Some reputable, high quality brands include (but are not limited to): Battery Station all blue sleeve only, Duracell, Energizer, Rayovac, and Surefire). Note that rechargeable cells of this size (RCR123A, 17340) are higher voltage (3.2 V - 3.6 V, depending on chemistry) and should not be used without manufacturer approval.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #32 July 26, 2009 So, we can use the batteries labled CR123 with out any repercussions? Does anyone have a straight-up yes or no answer for this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balu 1 #33 July 26, 2009 Quote If "something" happens to someone and in the course of the investigation, the Argus is opened up and the batteries inside are labeled CR123 instead of CR123A, will you get in trouble, or, will Argus support you because the batteries are interchangeable? Don't care about that. If your ARGUS fails because of the battery, you will be dead anyway. No courtyard will bring you back to life. For me it is a clear reason not to use this AAD. A modern AAD is a piece of high-tech, which should be run on absolutely reliable high-tech batteries. Instead people want to use the cheapest wal-mart crap, just to save a few dollars per year. However, as the warning labels say: Skydiving is a high-risk activity... Everyone can judge his own risk.1300 Sprünge, 100er Wingsuit Formation, viele nette Menschen kennengelernt, keine Unfälle. Schön war's! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #34 July 26, 2009 I'm not worried about me going in. I'm worried, as a rigger, about the liability of using a battery that is the same in shape, size, voltage and the manufacturer of the battery claims that ti is the same, except for the numbers printed on the side of the battery. Again I don't see how this is such a difficult question. Does Argus approve of the use of "energizer CR123" batteries? Can anyone answer this with a yes or no? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemia 0 #35 July 26, 2009 QuoteDoes Argus approve of the use of "energizer CR123" batteries? Can anyone answer this with a yes or no? Just ask Argus - they probably can... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #36 July 27, 2009 I hate to be "that guy", but if you read the whole thread that's what we have been talking about. I have tried to contact Argus with no direct reply, and a representative from Argus has spoken up in this thread with no difinitive response either. I am looking for an answer from a riggers point of view. Energizer states that their battery, model number, CR123, is the exact same battery as Argus brand CR123A, (or any other brand). The question has been posed several times and a couple of people have said that they are the same battery and it's OK to use them, but, no one from Argus has actually said whether or not the Energizer CR123 is an acceptable battery to use. It would be nice if someone from Argus would come out and say, "Yes. They are the same battery and it's ok to use it.", or, "NO. Only use batteries labeled CR123A. No exceptions.". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Daemia 0 #37 July 27, 2009 Actually i did read the thread (though I didn't get that you contacted Argus directly, sorry for that), but if not even the Argus representative answered your question here in a way of "yes or no", who should? By the way, imho getting no direct reply of a manufacturer of a life-saving-device when asking a question about that device does not make a very good impression... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #38 July 27, 2009 I agree. All of the dealings I have had with Argus have been not so good. But, these units are out there and people are buying them and using them and the batteries are going to need to be changed. I have decided to only use batteries labeled CR123A, until someone tell me different, because that is what it says in the manual. I still think that Argus needs to address this situation, because if this question came up in our little loft then I'm sure it'll come up somewhere else. I don't see why this question is so hard to answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerpaul 1 #39 July 27, 2009 QuoteInstead people want to use the cheapest wal-mart crap, just to save a few dollars per year. Just to be clear, nobody is talking about using "the cheapest wal-mart crap". The manual specifically calls out Energizer as a preferred brand. Here is the exact quote from the Argus manual. QuoteThe batteries are standard off-the-shelf CR123A. We recommend the use of Sanyo, Energizer, Duracell, Panasonic or Sony batteries. The remaining shelf life must be at least six years. Other brands can be used too, but we have found these brands to work the best. The question comes because the Energizer battery is labeled "123" instead of "CR123A". So we are asking Aviacom if this battery, the brand of which is specifically listed in the manual as a preferred, is okay to use. Maybe you think a proprietary battery would be better. That's okay to think, of course, but that's not the question here. Maybe you think that this example of a manufacturer's response says that Aviacom is a brand to avoid. That's okay too, of course, but that is also not the question at hand. We just want to know if the manufacturer approves of the use of this battery, of if they will claim we have fouled should such a battery be found in their device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #40 July 27, 2009 QuoteCR123A Camera Battery 123 CR123 R123 (Li-Ion) RCR123A RCR123 (Li-Ion) 17335 CR17345 (Lithium) 5018LC (Lithium) 1500 (Lithium) 700 (Li–Ion) 3 (Lithium) 3.6 (Li-Ion) Cylinder + Nub cylinder end − Flat opposite end L 34.5 mm D 17 mm CR (Cylindrical Lithium) 1 X 2/3A which breaks down further as 2/3 the size of an 'A' cell (an 'A' size cell is an industrial size) from en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_battery_sizesas I understand, it's the same...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #41 July 27, 2009 Yes. We have established that they are the same battery. We know that and the battery manufacturer know that. Does Aviacom, manufacturer of the Argus AAD, agree? They are the ones that need to come up with an answer and relay that onto the skydiving community. Come on Aviacom, talk to us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Balu 1 #42 July 27, 2009 Quote Just to be clear, nobody is talking about using "the cheapest wal-mart crap". The manual specifically calls out Energizer as a preferred brand. Which does not mean it is the only brand to be used. Some people might handle it the one way, some might handle it the other way. I also can't understand why it is so hard for Aviacom to give a clear statement on that question, or at least to say "Thanks for the input, we are working on it. Please be patient." That would be the way to show the customers, that they are taken serious.1300 Sprünge, 100er Wingsuit Formation, viele nette Menschen kennengelernt, keine Unfälle. Schön war's! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tsalnukt 1 #43 July 27, 2009 But what about other brands of batteries that have a diffrent designation for the same battery. I'd be willing to bet that energizer isn't the only manufacturer that has a diffrent label for the same battery. Still waiting for that reply form Argus......anybody? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wdriessens 0 #44 July 27, 2009 Dear all, Please find herunder the Official Statement of Aviacom SA about the use of batteries in the Argus AAD. 1. Our batteries supplier confirms that NOT all CR123 and C123A are identical. 2. Our product was tested with the following brands of Lithium batteries: Duracell (DL123A), Energizer (123 and EL123AP), Panasonic (CR123A), Sanyo (CR123A) and Sony (CR123A also labelled CR17345). We found that these work the best. 3. Other brands have not been tested and therefore we do not recommand their use. Karel GOORTS AVIACOM SA Managing director Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #45 July 27, 2009 QuoteHere is the exact quote from the Argus manual. QuoteThe batteries are standard off-the-shelf CR123A. We recommend the use of Sanyo, Energizer, Duracell, Panasonic or Sony batteries. The remaining shelf life must be at least six years. Other brands can be used too, but we have found these brands to work the best. The question comes because the Energizer battery is labeled "123" instead of "CR123A". … We just want to know if the manufacturer approves of the use of this battery, of if they will claim we have fouled should such a battery be found in their device. It is rather ironic that many/most of the highest quality "CR123A" batteries on the market are not labeled in exactly that way, but most lower quality, lower cost generics are. I'm of the opinion that it would be in everyone's best interest if Aviacom would give the ANSI & IEC standardized designation numbers for the cells they want to be used. While CR123A is a common name for the cells, but not a standardized designation.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianM 1 #46 July 27, 2009 Quote1. Our batteries supplier confirms that NOT all CR123 and C123A are identical. Not all CR123A's are identical either, for that matter... Thank you for statement, I think that should satisfy everyone."It's amazing what you can learn while you're not talking." - Skydivesg Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
