mattaman 0 #1 August 8, 2008 Hypothetical: Drop zone packs a mal in the main for a student, student cuts it away unstable, rsl deploys the reserve while they are tumbling, they get entangled in the reserve, and die. Technically, the person was dead and had no chance to survive on the skydive. I'm not sure a waiver will stand this, I'm not sure it should. Especially when it can be prevented.Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #2 August 8, 2008 >Drop zone packs a mal in the main for a student, student cuts it >away unstable, rsl deploys the reserve while they are tumbling, they get >entangled in the reserve, and die. Technically, the person was dead and ' >had no chance to survive on the skydive. Incorrect. A great many people have been unstable after a cutaway with an RSL; some have even gotten entangled with their reserve after a cutaway (RSL or not.) The vast majority of them survive. >I'm not sure a waiver will stand this, I'm not sure it should. Especially >when it can be prevented. It cannot be. You can become entangled in your reserve no matter what sort of system you have. Not having an RSL can cause you to impact with nothing out; having a Skyhook (or regular RSL) connected during a horseshoe mal can make a bad problem worse. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattaman 0 #3 August 8, 2008 So the students who died from an entanglement by the rsl that would've been prevented by the skyhook are acceptable losses to you?Those stuck in maya, seek to be seen. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #4 August 8, 2008 I have yet to see anyone use the term "acceptable loss" except you. I asked you a simple question and you avoided it. I think most have gotten your point. So again I ask you, Do we ground all student gear till it can be modified. Or should we just order new and throw the old away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
faulknerwn 36 #5 August 8, 2008 Do you really think that if every rig out there had a Skyhook on it right now that it would never contribute to a fatality? If so, you have almost a religious belief in the skyhook as the savior of skydivers. The Skyhook is a good thing - its not a cure-all however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #6 August 8, 2008 So what soapbox are you going to stand on when people start going in on skyhooks? You think it can't happen? I say it can and it will happen, it's only a matter of time & time will tell. I'm not saying its's a bad device, just that it's not 100% cure all to keep people from tumble'n thru a deployment and thus bouncing.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #7 August 8, 2008 QuoteHypothetical: Drop zone packs a mal in the main for a student, student cuts it away unstable, rsl deploys the reserve while they are tumbling, they get entangled in the reserve, and die. Technically, the person was dead and had no chance to survive on the skydive. I'm not sure a waiver will stand this, I'm not sure it should. Especially when it can be prevented. Skydiving is an inherently dangerous sport. There are accepted standards of conduct. If you follow those practices (6 minute "main" pack job instead of 60 minute "reserve"; students have all safety equipment required by the USPA BSRs) and some one still dies there isn't any negligence and the waver should hold up The current standards don't call for a MARD device like the sky-hook. Gross negligence (the student's reserve has a hole all the way through the container, free bag, and reserve; the reserve hasn't been repacked for a year in violation of the FARs; and it blows up because of the negligence) is the only place where we should expect the waivers to be invalid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,394 #8 August 8, 2008 > So the students who died from an entanglement by the rsl that >would've been prevented by the skyhook are acceptable losses to you? Yes. Just as the student who might be killed by using a Skyhook are acceptable losses to you. This is not a safe sport; you can be injured or killed even if you do everything right. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #9 August 8, 2008 Most of your hypothetical is nonsense, but I'll jump on the very first part because you are assuming the DZ "packed a mal." In your example the hypothetical main was packed by the drop zone (school), and not the person making the jump. The drop zone should be able to show the person who packed it was under the direct supervision of a rigger, and a specific rigger has taken responsibility for that pack job. If the fatality can be traced to the malfunction and the DZ can not show compliance with the FAR, then there may me a problem. That's why I'm such an advocate for having a local procedure in place that clearly establishes supervision. See an article I wrote for Parachutist in June 2002, and listed on The Ranch web site as "Article 11- Who Can Pack a Main Parachute" at http://theblueskyranch.com/STA.php. Specifically, if the main is to be jumped by somebody other than the person making the next jump, then the regulation appears to require some level of initial training, ongoing supervision, physical presence, and responsibility. I created a supervision record sheet that was included in a hard copy of the article at my DZ, and is attached to this post. The record sheet is NOT approved or required by the FAA, but rather is an example to assist in record keeping as a means of showing compliance. I know of very few drop zones that actually maintain written records of rigger oversight, but I hold that it is a good idea.Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #10 August 9, 2008 Drop zone packs a mal in the main for a studentQuote we toss a wad of string and nylon into a 100+ mph wind, what happens then is organized chaos with a chance of a poor outcome. student cuts it away unstable, rsl deploys the reserve while they are tumbling anytime you force a parachute and lines to travel around your body you are increasing your chances of a mal Technically, the person was dead and had no chance to survive on the skydive.Quote totally untrue, you are trying to place the blame on the dz and staff for the persons inability to do as trained, the outcome if they simply arched as they cutaway would likely be different, but nothing in skydiving is certain. In this sport you can do everything right and still die - 1 jump or 10000, it doesnt matter. I'm not sure a waiver will stand this, I'm not sure it should. Especially when it can be prevented. This isnt a amusement park ride, you dont seem to understand that in this sport there is no pause button, no redo's, the persons actions in the harness play a huge part in whether they have a good or bad outcome. If you cannot accept reality, perhaps you should go back to nintendo as you can change your bad choices to good simply by resetting the game. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #11 August 9, 2008 we tell people that might be looking BASE jump the same things... go back to your couch [potato] play video games, my sport ate your sport etc... is it right, is it wrong?Leroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
