Spanking from a Spectre?

[jrcolo 0]

I have a friend that had a "slammer" opening on sunday. He jumps a spectre 190 loaded at about 1.1. He said the second he pitched it was open. It also sounds like he had some bad riser slap, cause it took off his helmet (Z1). I know packing could cause this but what else could be a factor?

[porpoishead 5]

the canopy was just angry...

if you want a friend feed any animal
Perry Farrell

[freefalle 0]

body position, line dump, slider not positioned properly all come to mind. Its easy to blame body position, but it sounds like it more of a issue with the pack job. Spectre's aren't known for bad openings, generally quite the opposite. How many jumps does he have on the canopy? what conditions are the lines in? That may be a factor too.

Chuck

[jrcolo 0]

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body position, line dump, slider not positioned properly all come to mind. Its easy to blame body position, but it sounds like it more of a issue with the pack job. Spectre's aren't known for bad openings, generally quite the opposite. How many jumps does he have on the canopy? what conditions are the lines in? That may be a factor too.

Chuck

The canopy has about 15 jumps on it. He says he was flat and stable when he deployed. He does have a fast fall rate though, but its never been an issue before?

[peregrinerose 0]

ANY canopy can spank you occasionally, and there are lots of reasons for it other than canopy design that others have mentioned. I have about 450 jumps on a Spectre 150 at about 1:1, and got slammed one time (landed me in the ER), but all the rest were lovely opens.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Reginald 0]

Is he a low time jumper, recently with his license and first rig? Did he pack it himself?

Just guessing here?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[repcool 2]

I have a Spectre and it has only spanked me a couple of times. One was very interesting, I am sure it was "bad air". A load of us jumped in Eloy and ALL of us on the jump had nasty slammers, one girl ended up in the ER for whiplash. I think there were 4 or 5 of us, obviously something was common between the openings. Some folks had packed themselves and some had packers, but not the same packers. We ranged in experience from 100 to 300 jumps so I don't think body position was it. Odd.

[yoink 321]

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body position, line dump, slider not positioned properly all come to mind. Its easy to blame body position, but it sounds like it more of a issue with the pack job. Spectre's aren't known for bad openings, generally quite the opposite. How many jumps does he have on the canopy? what conditions are the lines in? That may be a factor too.

Chuck

The canopy has about 15 jumps on it. He says he was flat and stable when he deployed. He does have a fast fall rate though, but its never been an issue before?

Does he have enough experience to really know if he was flat and stable?

[Auryn 0]

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body position, line dump, slider not positioned properly all come to mind. Its easy to blame body position, but it sounds like it more of a issue with the pack job. Spectre's aren't known for bad openings, generally quite the opposite. How many jumps does he have on the canopy? what conditions are the lines in? That may be a factor too.

Chuck

The canopy has about 15 jumps on it. He says he was flat and stable when he deployed. He does have a fast fall rate though, but its never been an issue before?

Does he have enough experience to really know if he was flat and stable?

I got slammed by a spectre 150 when I had about 450 jumps, with about 10,000 packjobs working as a professional packer. At the time I packed the rig I didn't know I was going to jump it (it was a team rig) so it was "double blind". Still got slammed "dookie happens".

[phoenixlpr 0]

Any canopy can open hard. Why Spectre would be an exception?

[azureriders 0]

Had a spectre 230 1.1 to 1 slam me hard enough that all the nieghbors where looking up to see what the loud noise was as I was looking up at 6 broke lines, all below the cascades. My right front riser had no lines left on it and was dangling around my cameras, looked cool on video though. Point is, any canopy can slam you due to bad body position, loss slider, line dump, etc. Just glad your friend was not hurt.

By the way, since all the nieghbors were already looking up, I went ahead and cut that away just to give them a little show.

[ScottyE 0]

Tuck tab riser covers?

[RIGGER160 0]

Thats what I was thinking as well. I recently had a chance to talk to Bill Booth about this at Skyfest. He said that is one of the reasons he switched over to magnetic rier covers.

[erdnarob 1]

There are many factors contributing to a hard opening.
1) too big size of pilot chute
2) canopy type (fully elliptical are smoother)
3) Type of fabric (ZP can slam)
4) slider grommets not against the stoppers (generally the cause of a hard opening) at packing (to be checked again when finnishing bagging)
5) one tuck tab releasing a fraction of a second before the other one
6) too loose rubber bands on the POD
7) too small stows on the POD
8) too compact body position at pull time
9) pulling in a hurry when tracking is not finnished

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[phoenixlpr 0]

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9) pulling in a hurry when tracking is not finnished

Really? I got about 200 WS dive and usually pulled from full flight, so having about 100 Km/h+ horizontal speed.

[virgin-burner 1]

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9) pulling in a hurry when tracking is not finnished

Really? I got about 200 WS dive and usually pulled from full flight, so having about 100 Km/h+ horizontal speed.

not that i have that many, but i experienced it the same way. and i jump an original sabre..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[Floflo 0]

I had a slammer last week with my Crossfire... I had packed carefully as usual, it was a tandem video jump, so I wasn't tracking or did anything special on opening.
My container is in perfect condition, and I'm always carefull with my riser covers...

It was so hard the DZO was waiting for me when I landed because of the noise they heard from the ground...

Next jump, opening smooth as usual.

[Butters 0]

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9) pulling in a hurry when tracking is not finnished

When will this myth die ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Remster 24]

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9) pulling in a hurry when tracking is not finnished

When will this myth die ...

When people actually track. If you are diving in your track and have an overall higher speed with both H and V vectors, it will add to the potential for a slammer.

Remster

[azureriders 0]

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I had a slammer last week with my Crossfire... I had packed carefully as usual, it was a tandem video jump, so I wasn't tracking or did anything special on opening.
My container is in perfect condition, and I'm always carefull with my riser covers...

It was so hard the DZO was waiting for me when I landed because of the noise they heard from the ground...

Next jump, opening smooth as usual.

Totally off topic, but please make it a habit to track before pulling on tandem video jumps. If you do and I miss read your post, sorry.

[jawbreaker 0]

I have a Spectre 190 loaded about 1.1/1 In 750 jumps,749were soft as could be ..but one slammed pretty hard. Broke eight lines just above the links.Could have been a packing error??? or riser covers??

[skydiverek 54]

I quess all people spanked here were using Micorlines on their Spectres. I switched to Dacron on my Spectre. It made a WORLD of difference! The openings are WAY softer. This is now, what Spectre was meant to be!

Here is what BILL BOOTH has said on dropzone.com about DACRON LINES. Great source of info!:

"My tests show up to a 300% increase in opening shock felt by the jumper using Spectra vs. Dacron suspension lines. It is not always that much different. It depends on how quickly the force is applied...and canopy makers have done a good job of designing canopies that open slowly enough to allow the routine use of Spectra. However, when a rare hard (quick) opening happens, Spectra lines will definitely make it hurt more."

"Tandem canopies are public transportation. Little old ladies and parapelgics jump tandem. Dacron lines give lower opening shocks. It's that simple. This might not matter much on a "normal" opening, but if someone make a small mistake packing which results in a super fast opening, the Dacron lines could save somebody's grandmothers life. I know Dacron is bulkier, but I've seen no evidence that Dacron lined canopies have more malfunctions. In fact, I believe the opposite may be true."

"Anyone who doubts that suspension line stretch is a factor in reducing the opening shock felt by a jumper, should make a bungee jump...only replace the normal stretchy bungee cord with a stainless steel cable. What's going to happen when you hit the end of that steel cable? Your leg is going to be torn off, that's what. Now remember, Spectra line stretches about as much a steel cable."

"If you are not using Dacron lines, they would help. They stretch a little, and also slow the slider down due to surface friction. Spectra (micro) line does not. If you are already using Dacron lines, and still having hard openings, get a canopy that opens slower."

"The best way to avoid injuries from that occasional super hard opening (as well as the hard openings themselves), is not to jump no-stretch lines. Ask yourself, "Do I really need the (slight) advantages no-stretch lines offer?" If not, get Dacron. Your body will thank you, because even if you are not ever seriously injured on any single jump, each even slightly hard opening on no-stretch lines is damaging your body...and it all adds up."

"Spectra (micro line), Vectran, Kevlar, and HMA are "no-stretch" lines. They do not "absorb" opening shock the way Dacron does. This means that the same "hard" opening can hurt you a lot more. It's like doing a bungee jump with steel cable. The same force is applied...but a hell of a lot more shock is felt by the jumper. All the opening shock caused broken harnesses (two PDF tandem harnesses recently broke), injuries (a guy just broke both femurs), and fatalities (4 in the last two years that I know of) have all been on "no-stretch" line canopies, and could probably been prevented if Dacron line had been used. No stretch line is used because it is thinner, lighter, and has less drag than the same strength Dacron. While this is an "advantage" in a high speed swoop, it has no place in tandem. 85 year old grandmothers jump tandem. They, and many other tandem students, need the softest opening shock possible. This is why we only use Dacron line on our tandem products. Not to mention that our tandem equipment was NOT drop tested with no-stretch lined canopies.
I don't care if you have 1,000 jumps on a particular canopy with no-stretch lines with no problems. Ever canopy opens hard eventually. When that happens, I want some "bungee cord" between that canopy and the tandem passenger."

"One thing is for sure, if you jump "no-stretch" lines, especially Spectra (because it's so slippery, and reduces slider drag) your chance of being injured or killed by a hard opening shock is much greater than if you jump Dacron line, which stretches just enough to absorb some of that shock before it hits you."

"Spectra (or micro-line) is strong and tiny, so it reduces both pack volume and drag , which means you get a smaller rig and a faster canopy. Unfortunately, It has a couple of "design characteristics" (this is manufacturer talk for "problems") It is very slippery (less friction to slow the slider), and stretches less than stainless steel. This is why it hurt people and broke so many mini risers when it was first introduced. Now, I must say that the canopy manufacturers did a wonderful job handling these "characteristics" by designing new canopies that opened much slower than their predecessors. However, the fact still remains, that if you do have a rare fast opening on a microlined canopy, Spectra (or Vectran) will transmit that force to you (and your rig) much, much faster, resulting in an opening shock up to 300% higher than if you have Dacron lines. (It's sort of like doing a bungee jump with a stainless steel cable. At the bottom of your fall, your body applies the same force to the steel cable as it would to a rubber bungee cord, but because steel doesn't stretch, your legs tears off.)."

"Reinforced type-17 webbing risers rarely break. They have a new breaking strength of around 3,500 lbs. This is not that much less than type-8 risers breaking strength of 4,000 lbs. The real difference is whether you have mini rings or large rings...and the difference here is in cutaway forces, not breaking strength. While properly designed mini-ring risers can easily release even a 250 lb. jumper in a 3 or 4 "G" spin, the problem is that it is harder to manufacture mini-ring risers correctly. What causes any riser to break is usually a combination of a heavy jumper, a hard opening canopy, and no stretch (Spectra, Vectran, or HTML) line. Broken risers on Dacron lined canopies are very rare indeed."

"Single rear riser break is very rare. Risers usually break where they go around the large harness ring. It is obvious that since the "reinforcement" in type 17 risers is below the confluence, it does nothing to prevent this kind of damage. When this riser broke, it "released" a lot of energy, thus preventing much more serious injury of the jumper. Which is a good thing. The only way I know of to prevent "killer" opening shocks, is not to jump Spectra (Microline) or Vectran. They don't stretch at all, and therefore do nothing to help absorb the energy of a really hard opening. As long as we insist on jumping non-stretch lines, incidents like this are bound to happen. (Canopies with Dacron lines can still open hard, but much less shock is actually felt by the jumper.).

[theonlyski 3]

That makes perfect sense, but here is one for you:

Why not figure out a design for main risers that incoporates some sort of elastic, so that no matter what lines you use, you're covered.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[skydiverek 54]

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That makes perfect sense, but here is one for you:

Why not figure out a design for main risers that incoporates some sort of elastic, so that no matter what lines you use, you're covered.

Great idea. No one offers it. Therefore, your defense is Dacron.

[theonlyski 3]

Maybe Bill Booth has an idea on this subject.

Im sure someone somewhere has had to try this before. The only downsides I could see to a properly designed riser is the fact that it would wear out faster than a normal riser and it may be less sensitive to harness input steering at lower wing loadings.


Edit: Spelling

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message