Container Service Life

[wmw999 2,116]

$1800+ a little high for anything but really high-end gear in 1978 (I paid $400 for a new Wonderhog Sprint in 1979), but reserves were significantly cheaper then because they were round.

I think the first $1000+ canopy wasn't until about 1981-1982 or so, the Cruiselite.invisible

All that said, I'd go the individual inspection route. After enough time, unless the gear was yours the whole time, the chances of its having had a problem go up. Of course, when I got back into the sport after a long layoff, I was jumping my 18-year-old gear, and it was just fine. And my current rigs were both made in the late 90's.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Will_Evo 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I don't know,,it must be me, but its a life saving device,,why jump one 15 years or older,,,my limit is 7 years,,its just not worth it...

Im with you, I dont think I will ever buy gear more than 7 or so years old. I understand that a rig and canopy can be in great condition even past that age, but at the same time, with time comes innovation, id rather pay a bit more for a rig and canopy with less jumps and newer more comfortable options. Its gotta save my life, so Ill spend the extra grand. Just the way I feel about it, money can be replaced, I cant be. :\

-Evo

That's funny as hell to hear. This year I downsized from my 2005 Mirage to a 2001 Javelin, and trust me, the age was not a factor.

It's even funnier being how much gear I sell and buy - I am yet to have to stumble upon someone selling their stuff because it's "too old".

This of course raises the ethical question - if you think that gear that's 7 years old (btw, why such an ambiguous number ?) is not good enough to jump - would you still sell it to "unsuspecting newbie" or do you just trash it ?

I don't think 7 years is a magic number, really anywhere from 7-10 is fine. Just in my opinion I wont buy gear that old, I just dont see a reason. If I had to choose between a 1990 rig and a 2000 one, only difference was 1000$ in price, id opt for the newer one every time. Like I said, money is money, I make it everyday, but I can't be replaced, and if an extra grand gets me a rig with 900 less jumps, then Im all over it. Just a personal preference.

As far as selling to a new guy, its up to them, they might not feel the same way as I do. Like I said, I understand gear can be completely airworthy past 10 years old, but as a personal preference, its not for me.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[SStewart 13]

Quote

I'll borrow a phrase picked up from a knowledgeable old timer: "I think skydivers, these days, all squat to pee."

That really sums it up. The pussification of this sport is in full bloom.

My gawd, what has become of us?

Onward and Upward!

[wmw999 2,116]

Quote

I think skydivers, these days, all squat to pee

Quote

The pussification of this sport is in full bloom

So does that mean it's OK if I squat to pee, being a female in the first place?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SStewart 13]

Yes, it is OK for you

Although I have know women in this sport that could pee standing up.

Anyway, one of my containers is 10 years old and the other turns 7 this summer so I guess it's time to hang it up. I certainly can't afford to buy new ones.

Onward and Upward!

[ScottyE 0]

My Racer SST was built in 1991 looks new and the straps dont slip like some student gear I jumped

Plus its very Comfy

[LavaLady 0]

Though they do not appear to publish this letter on their web site, I have a letter headed - Re: Service Bulletin PA SB9502 Rev 2. Dated 18th Nov 2004 from the Managing Director of P.A. This letter adds to the SB and does indeed include the words that I posted previously regarding the potential means to grant limited extension to their SB.

[rockstar_girl 0]

Some of us may squat to pee, but if we had balls... they'd be MASSIVE! LOL

[flipper 0]

''I'll borrow a phrase picked up from a knowledgeable old timer: "I think skydivers, these days, all squat to pee."

+1

LMAO - Fucken priceless and sooooo true

[Will_Evo 0]

Quote

''I'll borrow a phrase picked up from a knowledgeable old timer: "I think skydivers, these days, all squat to pee."

+1

LMAO - Fucken priceless and sooooo true

I hope I am interpreting this wrong, because to me, it seems like you are putting down skydivers who are safe in the sport/go above and beyond to be safe. I am pretty sure we all jump out the plane, we all spend time under the canopy and we all eventually make it to the ground, now the level of safety involved before, during and after said events, are what makes this sport possible. Why would you have anything negative to say about that? :/

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

''I'll borrow a phrase picked up from a knowledgeable old timer: "I think skydivers, these days, all squat to pee."

+1

LMAO - Fucken priceless and sooooo true

I hope I am interpreting this wrong, because to me, it seems like you are putting down skydivers who are safe in the sport/go above and beyond to be safe. I am pretty sure we all jump out the plane, we all spend time under the canopy and we all eventually make it to the ground, now the level of safety involved before, during and after said events, are what makes this sport possible. Why would you have anything negative to say about that? :/

-Evo

You are interpreting it wrong.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

I hope I am interpreting this wrong, because to me, it seems like you are putting down skydivers who are safe in the sport/go above and beyond to be safe. I am pretty sure we all jump out the plane, we all spend time under the canopy and we all eventually make it to the ground, now the level of safety involved before, during and after said events, are what makes this sport possible. Why would you have anything negative to say about that? :/

You are interpreting it wrong.

When you get down to it, fear of old gear is just not rational. There are plenty of people out there jumping gear much older than 7 years. My first rig was 14 years old when I bought it and in great condition. I put 200 jumps on it and still keep it around as a backup and would (and have) jump it again if I have the need.

You've stated that you wouldn't jump gear more than 7 years old and also gone on to elaborate that you feel this is a safety issue. I'm sorry, but the statistics just don't back that up. Gear failure just doesn't figure that highly into morbidity and mortality statistics for skydiving. By far, most injuries and deaths are caused by user error. Failure of the gear itself barely rates a blip.

As far as the new innovations being safer point, that's not necessarily so, either. Magnetic riser covers... I've seen more than a couple closed incorrectly so that they're more likely to come open in a fast head-down attitude. That doesn't sound safer to me. Many of the latest innovations in canopy design have been about how to build better and better swooping machines, while swooping is the discipline associated with a disproportionately large share of injuries and fatalities in the sport.

If you want to be safe, learn. Improve your skills. Learn about why we do things the way we do and know your gear, how it works and what it's limitations are. A shiny new rig won't save you if you're a clueless git in the sky and saying that you won't jump gear more than 7 years old because of safety is just irrational gear fear. Inspect it regularly and maintain it as per manufacturers recommendations, but to toss out a perfectly airworthy rig because it's passed some arbitrary milestone in your head is just silly.

[Will_Evo 0]

Quote

Quote

I hope I am interpreting this wrong, because to me, it seems like you are putting down skydivers who are safe in the sport/go above and beyond to be safe. I am pretty sure we all jump out the plane, we all spend time under the canopy and we all eventually make it to the ground, now the level of safety involved before, during and after said events, are what makes this sport possible. Why would you have anything negative to say about that? :/

You are interpreting it wrong.

When you get down to it, fear of old gear is just not rational. There are plenty of people out there jumping gear much older than 7 years. My first rig was 14 years old when I bought it and in great condition. I put 200 jumps on it and still keep it around as a backup and would (and have) jump it again if I have the need.

You've stated that you wouldn't jump gear more than 7 years old and also gone on to elaborate that you feel this is a safety issue. I'm sorry, but the statistics just don't back that up. Gear failure just doesn't figure that highly into morbidity and mortality statistics for skydiving. By far, most injuries and deaths are caused by user error. Failure of the gear itself barely rates a blip.

As far as the new innovations being safer point, that's not necessarily so, either. Magnetic riser covers... I've seen more than a couple closed incorrectly so that they're more likely to come open in a fast head-down attitude. That doesn't sound safer to me. Many of the latest innovations in canopy design have been about how to build better and better swooping machines, while swooping is the discipline associated with a disproportionately large share of injuries and fatalities in the sport.

If you want to be safe, learn. Improve your skills. Learn about why we do things the way we do and know your gear, how it works and what it's limitations are. A shiny new rig won't save you if you're a clueless git in the sky and saying that you won't jump gear more than 7 years old because of safety is just irrational gear fear. Inspect it regularly and maintain it as per manufacturers recommendations, but to toss out a perfectly airworthy rig because it's passed some arbitrary milestone in your head is just silly.

Ok I understand the explanation of the post. And just to clarify, I did not say that old gear is not safe, in fact I said the opposite, I said I understand it can be airworthy, and I do not put down anyone that does use that particular gear. What I DID say is that its not for me, I said I, ME, MYSELF would rather buy newer gear for peace of mind for ME. And I COMPLETELY agree regardless of age of gear or kind, learning in the sport and becoming aware of safe and unsafe actions is the main way to be safe in the sport.

I am not mad, just to clarify, I just don't like people putting words in my mouth. Blue skies man

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[billvon 2,380]

>A shiny new rig won't save you if you're a clueless git in the sky
>and saying that you won't jump gear more than 7 years old because of
>safety is just irrational gear fear.

No, it's not. There ARE problems with older gear. (Pick a year; I'd be closer to 20 than 7 but the issues are still valid.)

Skydiving is a relatively new sport. It really didn't start until the 1950's, and things like standardized instruction did not appear until the 1960's. Until the 1970's, a good percentage of gear was military surplus. So it's only been the past 40 years that people have been making skydiving gear in large volumes.

In those 40 years we've seen a LOT of changes. We went from Capewells through some intermediate designs to the 3-ring. We went from ripcords to throwouts, from rounds to squares, from Dacron to Spectra, from no AAD's to Sentinels and FXC's to Cypreses. And most of these changes have been for the better.

Even today the advances are continuing. The Skyhook is new. The Collins lanyard has been around for a long time, but it's making its way back into rigs. Canopies pack smaller, open more reliably, and land better. AAD's are getting better.

A few years back I was at a wingsuit day down at Otay, and one one jump there were two reserve rides. One guy had a small Micro Raven and broke his leg trying to land - because Micro Ravens are hard to land. Had he had a more modern reserve, he would probably not have broken his leg.

Now, that doesn't mean that gear can replace common sense, skill or experience; a skilled jumper jumping crappy gear will almost always be safer than a clueless jumper with the most modern, up-to-date gear. But at a given level of skill, there's nothing wrong with wanting newer gear; indeed, it can be a very good decision in terms of safety.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

No, it's not. There ARE problems with older gear. (Pick a year; I'd be closer to 20 than 7 but the issues are still valid.)

I never said there wasn't. What I was getting at is you shouldn't think that just because something is x years old, it's no longer useful. Retire a harness because it's webbing is worn and the hardware slips under load.

Quote

In those 40 years we've seen a LOT of changes. We went from Capewells through some intermediate designs to the 3-ring. We went from ripcords to throwouts, from rounds to squares, from Dacron to Spectra, from no AAD's to Sentinels and FXC's to Cypreses. And most of these changes have been for the better.

Also not disagreeing with you there. I *have* a shiny new rig, *because* I think it's better. But my rig being better does not make me better. It also doesn't it make me safer unless I understand how it works, it's limitations, how to use it and exercise safe practices while doing so.

The thrust of the one of the posts of the user to whom I replied was saying that new innovations are generally always *safer*, not just *better*. Canopies like the competition velocity and samurai encapsulate some of the latest knowledge and innovation in high performance canopy design, but I have no business under either and buying one would not make me or those around me any safer. Even advances that may have a safety benefit can backfire if not used correctly (eg. magnetic riser covers closed with the risers between the magnets) or outside of their designed operational range (eg. swooping incidents with the CYPRES from several years ago).

Quote

One guy had a small Micro Raven and broke his leg trying to land - because Micro Ravens are hard to land.

And therein lies the reason to retire such a canopy. Sure - it may be an older design, but you'd retire such a canopy because it is hard to land. It has nothing to do with how old the canopy is. A shiny new Micro Raven made today from the original design and out of similar fabric would still have similar crappy landing characteristics, but it's brand new and flies worse than an 8 year old PDR.

Quote

Now, that doesn't mean that gear can replace common sense, skill or experience; a skilled jumper jumping crappy gear will almost always be safer than a clueless jumper with the most modern, up-to-date gear. But at a given level of skill, there's nothing wrong with wanting newer gear; indeed, it can be a very good decision in terms of safety.

That's pretty much my point - well that, and make your gear retirement decisions on functional criteria that matter.

[humanflite 0]

Quote

Some of us may squat to pee, but if we had balls... they'd be MASSIVE! LOL

I nearly spilt my cup of coffee when I read this


ALso...
Does anyone know if Javelin containers are lifed?

[SStewart 13]

Quote

In those 40 years we've seen a LOT of changes. We went from Capewells through some intermediate designs to the 3-ring. We went from ripcords to throwouts, from rounds to squares, from Dacron to Spectra, from no AAD's to Sentinels and FXC's to Cypreses. And most of these changes have been for the better.

None of these changes happened in the last 7 years and most occured decades ago. Dacron is still common on many canopies especially for CRW and the two canopies I jump now have spectra suspension lines and dacron steering lines. When they are due for reline I will go back to dacron. (doesn't shrink, softer openings for camera, etc.)

Nothing wrong with new improvements but a seven year arbitrary time limit is absurd. I have a rig that is ten years old but was never jumped until just a few years ago and still looks brand new. My Infinity is six and a half but the design is essentialy the same as one made today. When it turns seven should I get rid of it and buy another one that is basically the same rig? Older rigs can also be retrofitted and upgraded to newer, modern standards.

Newer is not always better. I personally don't like the newer models of certain rigs and actually preferred the older design better. I would not even buy a new design until it has been around for awhile to make sure they have worked all the bugs out. You know, for safety

It all comes down to proper care and maintenance. I have seen containers just a few years old and completely trashed and rigs builtin the 90's that still looked brand new. Just like with canopies if it is airworthy it's airworthy, if it is not it's not.

Onward and Upward!

[likestojump 3]

Quote

A few years back I was at a wingsuit day down at Otay, and one one jump there were two reserve rides. One guy had a small Micro Raven and broke his leg trying to land - because Micro Ravens are hard to land. Had he had a more modern reserve, he would probably not have broken his leg.

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, wrong.

a DIFFERENT reserve, not necessarily a more modern one would have made a difference.

a 1989 PDR would have not given the person the same landing problems as his 1992 MR may.

[Rover 9]

Quote

Though they do not appear to publish this letter on their web site, I have a letter headed - Re: Service Bulletin PA SB9502 Rev 2. Dated 18th Nov 2004 from the Managing Director of P.A. This letter adds to the SB and does indeed include the words that I posted previously regarding the potential means to grant limited extension to their SB.

Thats may be but until its put up as an amendment to the bulletin on the PA website, gear here in NZ will continue to be grounded. Please define 'limited extension'.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[LavaLady 0]

I can't define their definition of limited extension, only PA could. Please feel free to get in touch with me via email - you can find it on my profile.

[brettski74 0]

Quote

I did not say that old gear is not safe, in fact I said the opposite, I said I understand it can be airworthy, and I do not put down anyone that does use that particular gear. What I DID say is that its not for me, I said I, ME, MYSELF would rather buy newer gear for peace of mind for ME.

Peace of mind from what? If it's not the safety of the older gear that you question then what is it? Fashion? Style?

[billvon 2,380]

>a DIFFERENT reserve, not necessarily a more modern one would have
>made a difference.

A more modern reserve would have made a difference. A 1986 Swift would have been just as bad (if not worse.) And a 26' Navy reserve would definitely have been worse.

[likestojump 3]

Quote

>a DIFFERENT reserve, not necessarily a more modern one would have
>made a difference.

A more modern reserve would have made a difference. A 1986 Swift would have been just as bad (if not worse.) And a 26' Navy reserve would definitely have been worse.

but a SuperRaven probably would have been just fine. Even a 1986 one. Or a 1989 PD reserve...

see, everything taken in context.

[Will_Evo 0]

Quote

Quote

I did not say that old gear is not safe, in fact I said the opposite, I said I understand it can be airworthy, and I do not put down anyone that does use that particular gear. What I DID say is that its not for me, I said I, ME, MYSELF would rather buy newer gear for peace of mind for ME.

Peace of mind from what? If it's not the safety of the older gear that you question then what is it? Fashion? Style?

I feel like people are purposely trying to not see my point here and disagree with me. For me, myself, it doesn't have to be exactly 7 years it could be 10, but for me, I would rather buy the newer rig because chances are, its younger, had less owners, less jumps(usually), less pack jobs, newer material etc, and of course newer gear could have more jumps on it, but that is why I wouldn't blindly buy gear either, or buy gear that has no history, like a rough jump count, reserve uses and packs etc... I would rather not be the person to be jumping that 20 year old rig that is completely airworthy, and find out a part of the rig has just seen its last hard opening. This goes for canopies and containers. just my preference. I know people using old gear, and I could care less, it works for them, but for me, I just dont see the point in buying said gear when I could have newer, fresher gear instead. I am not putting anyone down for using old gear, like I said, to each his own, but for me, I wont buy it, theres no reason. I might hold on to a rig I bought for a while, but thats because I know how its been treated and how its been maintained, but I will never buy an old rig.

I had my first cutaway yesterday, and am extremely glad I had a nice new reserve packed. Once again it gave me peace of mind to know that that reserve is at least maintained well, and is of the most modern design there is(In reserve technology). I cant imagine having to cutaway to a 20 year old reserve, I just dont see why, your reserve is your last hope, shouldn't you have the best? Anyways, Im done with explaining myself. If you still dont see what I am saying, then so be it.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[likestojump 3]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I did not say that old gear is not safe, in fact I said the opposite, I said I understand it can be airworthy, and I do not put down anyone that does use that particular gear. What I DID say is that its not for me, I said I, ME, MYSELF would rather buy newer gear for peace of mind for ME.

Peace of mind from what? If it's not the safety of the older gear that you question then what is it? Fashion? Style?

I feel like people are purposely trying to not see my point here and disagree with me. For me, myself, it doesn't have to be exactly 7 years it could be 10, but for me, I would rather buy the newer rig because chances are, its younger, had less owners, less jumps(usually), less pack jobs, newer material etc, and of course newer gear could have more jumps on it, but that is why I wouldn't blindly buy gear either, or buy gear that has no history, like a rough jump count, reserve uses and packs etc... I would rather not be the person to be jumping that 20 year old rig that is completely airworthy, and find out a part of the rig has just seen its last hard opening. This goes for canopies and containers. just my preference. I know people using old gear, and I could care less, it works for them, but for me, I just dont see the point in buying said gear when I could have newer, fresher gear instead. I am not putting anyone down for using old gear, like I said, to each his own, but for me, I wont buy it, theres no reason. I might hold on to a rig I bought for a while, but thats because I know how its been treated and how its been maintained, but I will never buy an old rig.

I had my first cutaway yesterday, and am extremely glad I had a nice new reserve packed. Once again it gave me peace of mind to know that that reserve is at least maintained well, and is of the most modern design there is(In reserve technology). I cant imagine having to cutaway to a 20 year old reserve, I just dont see why, your reserve is your last hope, shouldn't you have the best? Anyways, Im done with explaining myself. If you still dont see what I am saying, then so be it.

-Evo

I don't mean this as a slam towards you, but the way I read your "reasons" :

I have no idea about the gear, and as such I would rather err on the side of caution and personal safety and get new(er) gear just to be (what I consider) safe.

that's completely reasonable coming from a 1 year 35 jump person (again, not a slam, just using facts presented). But when a person with 31 years and hundreds of jumps in the sport says the same thing, most of us wonder if that said person is a bit of a pussy (re: "squats to pee") or is simply resistant to knowing the gear that have been trusting their life to for that last 3 decades, or if they can in fact give some reasonable explanation.