Customers who order gear and dont pay

[bigway 4]

JUst wondeirng if any other gear stores have had this problem. Where a customer orders, you trust the guy to pay you and then he never does over 6 months but he makes 101 promises and never follows through or contacts you with an excuse.
My customer ended up paying 10% of his rig and never another cent.

HE ordered a special size custom order, never paid over 6 months.


Should people like this have their name and details put in a public forum for all to be warned about his ethics incase he tries to purchase from another dealer??

The manufacturer surely will not make another order for him, i will also let every other manufacturer know to be warned, but should it be made public so none of you guys get screwed over?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[freeflyit 0]

I just hope you didn't give him the gear!

In my oppinion, there will always be people like this so the best way to make a deal is to have the upper hand. Dude doesn't reply with the cash after the 1st time, sorry, your order is put on hold until you show me the money.

If the manufacturer decides to continue manufacturing it is ciompletely their fault. And on orders like harnesses, the deposit should be at least 50%.

[likestojump 3]

Well... The very few sets of new gear that I sell, I make sure that at the least the deposit equals the loss I will have to take to resell the gear fast and still make some money.

Otherwise, like the poster above said - take enough of a deposit to make it worth your time. Can't deposit promises into the bank account :(

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Yes.

Kinda like businesses that put bad checks up right by the cash register for all to see, huh?

I doubt that kind of forum would happen here, although it would be nice. Feedback on classified buyer/sellers would be nice too, but I understand the level of work for that sort of thing (double checking with both parties to ascertain the facts of a bad deal) makes it pretty impossible on a free site like this.

I guess the only real way to cover yourself would be to get a deposit that would cover your losses in case the buyer backs out. Odd sizes/colors would require a higher deposit because of the lesser chance of selling later.

And of there was a legit reason he couldn't buy after ordering- lost job or something, he could have at least been upfront about it. Cheap excuses and false promises are just insulting.

FWIW, most parts for my Porsche have to be special ordered. Most auto parts stores require full payment before ordering. Non-refundable.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[diablopilot 2]

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I guess the only real way to cover yourself would be to get a deposit that would cover your losses in case the buyer backs out.

With the profit margins involved with skydiving gear after the discounts common in this industry, such a deposit would likely be within 85 to 90% of the purchase price.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[bigway 4]

A deposit is only to show me that you are going to pay for it and not let me down. For a dealer to take a deposit to cover the cost of the rig if the customer does do a runner would be 90% of the sale price.

I think alot of people take for granted how much of a risk a dealer takes when they only collect a 50% deposit.

Most manufacturers.... once the order has been cut, you own the order.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[wildcard451 0]

what ever happened to not buying shit you cant afford?

Payment in full at time of order.

didn't know it happened any other way. good to know.

[diablopilot 2]

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Payment in full at time of order.

I like the way you think.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[DShiznit 0]

I'd strongly suggest a 50% non refundable deposit on special order...

[councilman24 36]

The 'losses' aren't 85 to 90%. You still have the gear to sell. Maybe at a steep discount but a deposit of 50% should easily cover the lost profit and amount below cost you may have to sell the gear to get rid of it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[billvon 2,394]

>such a deposit would likely be within 85 to 90% of the purchase price.

That's only true if you burn the gear or something.

If someone orders a custom main for $1800, and you think you can resell it for $1500, then ask for a $400 deposit. If he bails out, keep the deposit, sell the main for $1500 and you've made an extra $100 for your trouble.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

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>such a deposit would likely be within 85 to 90% of the purchase price.

That's only true if you burn the gear or something.

If someone orders a custom main for $1800, and you think you can resell it for $1500, then ask for a $400 deposit. If he bails out, keep the deposit, sell the main for $1500 and you've made an extra $100 for your trouble.

Or if it has really unusual colors and you might only get $1000 for it, then the deposit should be $900.

Thanks Billvon , that's exactly how I meant it.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[millertime24 8]

Yeah at our dz its 50% up front. then the order is made and you can pay as you go until it gets there or you can pay one lump sum when it gets there. Either way once you've put dow 50% on anything more than $1000 its pretty damn hard to walk away from that knowing you'll not get your $500 back. I think its a good incentive. Also at one of the dz's I jump at if you order gear they let you use the rental stuff for free until it gets there (even more incentive imo).

Muff #5048

[bigway 4]

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The 'losses' aren't 85 to 90%. You still have the gear to sell. Maybe at a steep discount but a deposit of 50% should easily cover the lost profit and amount below cost you may have to sell the gear to get rid of it.

Actually, it is true in many situations.

This person has a rig using wales flag colours, loads of bright green, a 260 student canopy and a smart 250 reserve with the container being a oversized Icon I8 that dealers can not even order through software.

So with this order it is not as simple as having the gear still to sell.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[virgin-burner 1]

thats right the container i want to testjump the FOX with.. say, i'll give you 100$ for it!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[freeflyit 0]

Yea but like, 'cmon! Who is going to order that?!?! Maybe one in a million...in that case, okay, maybe you should suffer the loss for not getting a 100% deposit!

But even still, you'd probably be able to sell that to a DZ owner who will use it as student/training/rental gear for a reduced price (say 50%) plus you would have the 50% deposit. If you still have the gear and a large enough deposit, chances are that you won't lose financially.

[Parafoil27 0]

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what ever happened to not buying shit you cant afford?

Payment in full at time of order.

didn't know it happened any other way. good to know.

I agree totaly. I'm not going to lie. I don't have alot of cash but i can't see such expensive custom items being cut before the full amount is paid. It's one thing to make payments on a ready made item but another to have something custom made for 10% down and expect to get the full amount.
Any kid or adult who can't manage money can come up with $200 for 10% down on a $2000 container. How many can cough up $2000 out of the blue when the container is ready? Your average kid working at mcdonalds might make what $200 to $300 week??? So it's easy to put in 10% on an impulse and then decide they cant afford it when they find that taking money out every week for a rig is leaving them broke and without beer money(MMMM BEER).

EARTH! Short bus of the universe,
since the year T+10.3 billion!

REV. DUDEMIESTER D.S.#120

[brettski74 0]

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Actually, it is true in many situations.

This person has a rig using wales flag colours, loads of bright green, a 260 student canopy and a smart 250 reserve with the container being a oversized Icon I8 that dealers can not even order through software.

So with this order it is not as simple as having the gear still to sell.

I'm not a dealer, nor have I ever been, so take my comments in that light... Given the risk you're taking on with such an odd order, I think a higher deposit is warranted and easily justifiable if you explain it to the customer that way. Another point about collecting a larger deposit is it shows a certain level of seriousness from the customer and their ability to pay the sums of money that may be required. It also provides a higher level of commitment from the customer. I'll care a lot more about losing a $3000 deposit than I will a $300 deposit. It would motivate me to make sure I find the final payment when it's due.

As far as reporting these people, have you thought of using credit bureaus? There are "international" credit bureaus, now. I don't know how extensive their coverage is, but I would expect that it would cover at least most of the G20 nations and probably more. I know my mortgage broker can pull mine for about US$55. If someone has a poor credit report, it's higher risk for you, so ask for a higher deposit or even full payment up front if it's bad enough.

As far as reporting late or non-payers, the same thing could apply. You may be able to get set up as a credit provider reporting into the bureaus, or failing that, you may be able to work with either a finance company up front - think 6 months no payment no interest type deal - or work with a collection agency after the fact to collect the debt. Either of these will already be set up to do credit reporting. Obviously there will be fees involved with this, though, which may affect your competitiveness if other dealers aren't doing it.

This is just a thought, but it will probably be safer as I'm not sure, but maintaining our own list of bad payers may involve privacy (ie. legal) issues and someone is going to have to spend the time and probably money in maintaining it. Using established credit bureaus for this avoids any potential legal problems for you and the hassle of maintaining the list and the systems for reporting into it and retrieving information. The established credit bureaus also cover a wider range of commerce than just skydiving gear sales, so you'll know about people with a history of bad payments before they ever try to buy gear.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Maybe a standard purchase contract along with a credit card number. The contract states he owes the balance upon delivery; you hit the cc. If it doesn't work you hit it again next month. I've done that with CCs that bounce for no show tandems.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

This person has a rig using wales flag colours, loads of bright green, a 260 student canopy and a smart 250 reserve with the container being a oversized Icon I8 that dealers can not even order through software.

So with this order it is not as simple as having the gear still to sell.

Well, yes it is that simple.

The problem is that you are going to have to discount it heavily to sell it because of the unusual size and colors. The only real use is as student gear (BIG student gear). I'd think there are DZs that would purchase it if it was well below retail cost.

A much higher deposit (50-75% perhaps?) would be perfectly reasonable in this situation, IMO. Explain to the customer that you aren't willing to accept that kind of exposure if he backs out.

Maybe part of it on order, the remainder before start of construction. That would prevent "I'm not putting that much down with that long of a wait".

Note: I'm not a dealer, nor do I know much about ordering custom gear. I'm just stating what I see as reasonable behavior on the part of the dealer. And I don't see a whole lot you can do now, these are just suggestions for the future.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[freeatlast 0]

I would probably put the guy's name up on my website and label him an a**hole!

But seriously the only real solution is to take a large deposit - we used to ask for at least 50% when i used to sell handmade suits because it would not fit anyone else properly ...

The flip-side of this issue is that Gary is a really nice guy and tends to do his very best to help out a fellow jumper which unfortunately means he risks his own money when he sells gear to an idiot like this guy ...

Maybe if everyone Gary's ever helped - did Gary a favour and made sure that this guy is not welcome wherever he's currently jumping !!!

[heavydude 0]

Hey them are about my sizes on canopies. If you really have problems getting rid of it let me know. Although w/ shipping to Socal it may get too expensive.

[mdrejhon 8]

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I would probably put the guy's name up on my website and label him an a**hole!

He's up on the website now at http://www.karnagekrew.com/ ... Apparently, the name up on the website is Wayne John.

[bigway 4]

Quote

Quote

This person has a rig using wales flag colours, loads of bright green, a 260 student canopy and a smart 250 reserve with the container being a oversized Icon I8 that dealers can not even order through software.

So with this order it is not as simple as having the gear still to sell.

Well, yes it is that simple.

The problem is that you are going to have to discount it heavily to sell it because of the unusual size and colors. The only real use is as student gear (BIG student gear). I'd think there are DZs that would purchase it if it was well below retail cost.

A much higher deposit (50-75% perhaps?) would be perfectly reasonable in this situation, IMO. Explain to the customer that you aren't willing to accept that kind of exposure if he backs out.

Maybe part of it on order, the remainder before start of construction. That would prevent "I'm not putting that much down with that long of a wait".

Note: I'm not a dealer, nor do I know much about ordering custom gear. I'm just stating what I see as reasonable behavior on the part of the dealer. And I don't see a whole lot you can do now, these are just suggestions for the future.

Please bear in mind this case was not a random customer. It was someone I fooled myself into thinking I trusted. I know I fucked up with this order but I fucked up cause i was wrong to trust someone.

I always take enough payment upfront upon oall orders to make sure I am not left in the shit, in this case, I trusted the wrong persons word.

My bad.

And telling me it is that simple is pure bullshit and pure speculation, you tell me I just now have to heavily discount it? It already was heavily discounted. There is no point in discounting it below dealer price.

Your idea of it being that simple comes from speculation as if you know all the facts about what it costs to buy, what the sale price was, what restocking price costs, what exchange rates and brokerage fees costs, what i can and can not sell it for under contract etc. When I say it is not that simple just to sell a container that is made for a guy who is 220 LBS, has only one leg and needs a student canopy in an oversized container.... I say it is not that simple just to sell because it is not that simple just to sell.

I dont say it is not that simple because it is simple, I say it because it is not. Maybe you can accept me saying that as in I know better than you do in this situation as I am in this situation and I am a gear distributor who knows a shit load about custom orders and what is and what is not involved?

Im just saying....


I see you also think that DZ's will buy if it was well below retail cost. most dzs all ready have gear stores on their dropzones and can already buy their gear well below dealer cost. Why would they want to buy this rig off me? Hell, the manufacturer does not even want to have to put this gear into their stock inventory.

i'm just saying......



I dont mean offence (just being direct) but i hope this post might make you see that you jumped very quickly to argue with me by saying "Well, Yes it is that simple" when I from experience of my full time occupation said "so with this order it is not as simple as having the gear to still sell".

Again, I sold this to a person who is a very regular poster and big contributor of a website I am a member of, I let myself down and have learnt a valuable lesson thinking I could trust someone I really do not even know. Its my bad, I have learnt from it, but fuck him for being a wanker who would have let me put my house on it that he would pay for his order in time, even after a 6 weeke extension time i gave him cause the fuckwit went on a skydiving holiday 2 weeks after the dealine of paying me, without paying me and telloing me this stupid bullshit that he could not afford it and it would be paid in a further 2 weeks. Comes back from holiday and says 'sorry, i have been on a skydiving trip in the south of france', now next week he is off to a boogie in prague. The stupid prick has not contacted me since he last promised to make payment on may 31st in full. Come the next monday, "oh the checque did not clear'. then no contact at all.

the guy is a piece of shit and I would expect nobody to sell him a rig.

Anyway, I have things sorted, i have had alot of help from the mnaufacturer who watched my back and am not left in a position that is a problem for me. No thanks to the prick who left me in the shit like that.

I give my customers my all, I may not come across very professional, but i dont give a shit. MY customers love the experience and understand that I am just another jumper first and foremost. My customers get excellent service and they all get trusted once as they are trusting me with their huge payments towards their dream rigs. This is the first time one of them has fucked me over in three years. The res tof my customers have been fantastic, most always pay upfront upon ordering but i like to help out where i can and give those that need a bit of time, i give them a bit of time, those that need a deal, i try to give them a deal, i guess that is the risk i take, but for the satisfaction of my customers and the reviews they write in my guest book..... it is all worth it to me. I have found a place in the sport i love so much. When a customer gets their rig and writes that email telling me how stoked they are with the entire process, that is like smelling jet fuel in the morning from a distance.

Flame away......

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
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[bigway 4]

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Maybe a standard purchase contract along with a credit card number. The contract states he owes the balance upon delivery; you hit the cc. If it doesn't work you hit it again next month. I've done that with CCs that bounce for no show tandems.

YEs mate, I have every single bit of correspondence between me and the customer, all on a workbook with date and time codes etc. It is all regarded as a contract to me. He is not going to have to pay for this, I am also not interested in selling to him anymore, even if he came with the cash today, no way. I was selling him a complete rig for $5000 all custom made. Like fuck is he going to get that deal anywhere else. He has paid 10%, that will be going towards my dogs operation. He can go and buy the rig from someone else and pay alot mroe than what he was getting it from me for. I thought I was hooking the guy up big time. I laugh that he will be losing 10% and paying much higher prices elsewhere, though I doubt the manufacturer will be happy making him a rig.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.