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danielcroft

Vector 3 main flap (not pin) snag potential

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I think this thread is great, I've got a lot of laughs out of it, thanks. :D

I spent some time talking to John and Sonic over the weekend and I understand where John's coming from (blah blah blah Skyhook, blah blah blah Infinity - to quote him :D). I also spoke with a couple of people who jump the V3 and love it. I think I get the points that people are trying to make that (to sum up & paraphrase) any extra benefit, however small, is good. All you experienced people arguing about it in a medium which is poor at best kind of does you all a disservice.

Having said that, the fact that it is soooo far off topic is kind of getting old. I don't need to be convinced/unconvinced of the Skyhook. The religious debate about it is kind of getting old. I think Bill Booth's explanation summed up my understanding of the real advantage of the Skyhook that I wasn't able to put into words. It's not about altitude as much as it is about a cleaner reserve deployment. Can we stop arguing about it now? Admittedly some of the insults have been very amusing but seriously, let's move on. Please?

I feel uncomfortable asking this because I don't feel worthy but I'm going to ask anyway.

Bill, could you please address the concerns I raised originally regarding the construction of the V3 container? Now that I've had a chance to look at some rigs in more detail over the weekend, it's pretty clear to me that the V3 container is pretty complicated. There are flaps all over the place, the routing of cables for the Collins Lanyard seems really messy, on one of the rigs I saw, I could see various pads & boards & stuff int the top of the rig (it's relatively new). The secondary riser covers are kind of an afterthought. Comparing that to an Infinity (for example), it looks messy. I would never presume to have a better understanding of 90% (maybe more) of the skydiving community so I'm open to an explanation from some one who does.

Another benefit of the V3 rig that people haven't mentioned is the Collins Lanyard. Riser failure may be very rare these days but we still see this happening for various other reasons (risers not hooked up correctly, etc). Yeah, these things shouldn't happen but they do, we're all human.

@ Kelly, I really think you're dismissing the neato factor way too quickly, magnets rule! :D The other advantage is that, in the event that the riser covers come undone (and yes, they shouldn't to start with but we all know they do from time to time) magnetic riser covers have the ability to close themselves. Not to mention that while you may fix your risers in the event of a tuck tab breaking for free, it's still a wear item that will require my single rig to be out of action for a couple of weeks.

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@ Kelly, I really think you're dismissing the neato factor way too quickly, magnets rule! :D The other advantage is that, in the event that the riser covers come undone (and yes, they shouldn't to start with but we all know they do from time to time) magnetic riser covers have the ability to close themselves. Not to mention that while you may fix your risers in the event of a tuck tab breaking for free, it's still a wear item that will require my single rig to be out of action for a couple of weeks.



then buy 2 rigs :-P

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

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adds nothing to the conversation other than thinly veiled personal attacks...



that is the pot calling the kettle black now isn't it.



well, yes and no.. i was being an extreme example to illustrate my point ;)

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on a serous note[. . .]

You really think the skyhook is complex? i find it really simple, the collins is really easy to check, and is just a part of the routine gear check.

There are extra things in there but they are far from complex.



Complex is a relative term. Do i think that their complexity outweighs their usefulness? No. But they are certainly more complex than a rig w/o them. They offer more opportunities for someone to screw something up and that added complexity should be taken into account in the decision making.

Landing without injury is not necessarily evidence that you didn't fuck up... it just means you got away with it this time

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@ Kelly, I really think you're dismissing the neato factor way too quickly, magnets rule! :D The other advantage is that, in the event that the riser covers come undone (and yes, they shouldn't to start with but we all know they do from time to time) magnetic riser covers have the ability to close themselves.


Sort of. They aren't going to reclose themselves into the most secure configuration that (if packed properly in the first place) they already came open from, so they may end up opening and closing numerous times per jump.

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Not to mention that while you may fix your risers in the event of a tuck tab breaking for free, it's still a wear item that will require my single rig to be out of action for a couple of weeks.


Agreed, which is why I said that there IS a benefit to the magnets, but it's more a benefit for potential maintenance issues than anything else. Then there's the issue of that requirement in the license agreement that we can't comply with. Maybe Bill can afford to defend himself, or afford to comply with it with all those skyhook sales:P

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Sort of. They aren't going to reclose themselves into the most secure configuration that (if packed properly in the first place) they already came open from, so they may end up opening and closing numerous times per jump.


Ok, I can understand that but wouldn't the less secure version of closed be better than not closed at all?

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Agreed, which is why I said that there IS a benefit to the magnets, but it's more a benefit for potential maintenance issues than anything else. Then there's the issue of that requirement in the license agreement that we can't comply with. Maybe Bill can afford to defend himself, or afford to comply with it with all those skyhook sales:P


That's the license from the patent company who patented any use of magnets in skydiving gear? I had a quick look for it but couldn't find anything.

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I would like to hear Bill address the question you are asking about the main flap..... that being said I do NOT think the rig is messy and I think that all the flaps are well designed. Again, I am biased as I love my V3M. The rig is not that complicated and when I check my rig I can check the Collins Lanyard while I check my Cypres. The only thing I cannot check is the skyhook but how it is set up.... as long as the thread is used it will stay secure. If the skyhook somehow slips off then you simply have a two handle system. As stated above I do not change my altitudes at all because I have a skyhook and my emegency procedures have not changed..... just like using an rsl...... you still pull 2 handles and do not count on the "back up" working. I had a nasty line twist a couple weekends ago..... I was open at 2400 and saw it coming and shifted in my harness to correct the line twist on opening but whoops..... went the wrong way and that made it spin up more..... at 2000 I was kicking out of it just fine and did not even think about chopping then I started spinning faster and on my back.... at this point I was at 1500 and I started to correct it more.... I was not in a flat spin nor was it spinning up more. I could see 2 more twists in the lines and that they were working out with my inputs at this point I was at 1000 and I was not going to chop it even with the skyhook! I had everything worked out by 900 and landed by some cows off the airport but safe :) After I got down I went over the situation with a mentor of mine and asked should I have chopped at 1500 when the spin started kicking up a notch but I could see 2 more twists that were coming undone? His response was....... what are your altitudes and did you have something over your head? He then said he would have probably worked it out as well...... had I been jumping something loaded more than 1.3 I think this would be way different. The point is I never even thought about the fact that I had a skyhook so I could chop below 1000..... it never crossed my mind.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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Honestly, I have NFI about rig design so all I'm asking really is for an explanation from Bill who knows way, way, way more than me why firstly some people say that the main flap may be more of a risk than others and subsequently why there seems to be a fair bit of difference between the apparent (to me) neatness of the Infinity (again, for example) to the V3.

One other point I forgot to mention was the placement of the hip ring in the MLW. Where it is in the V3 makes the MLW kink on opening (when you're bending).

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Honestly, I have NFI about rig design so all I'm asking really is for an explanation from Bill who knows way, way, way more than me why firstly some people say that the main flap may be more of a risk than others and subsequently why there seems to be a fair bit of difference between the apparent (to me) neatness of the Infinity (again, for example) to the V3.

One other point I forgot to mention was the placement of the hip ring in the MLW. Where it is in the V3 makes the MLW kink on opening (when you're bending).



We shall see if Bill responds again.....
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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You need to read the post in the context of the entire thread. He's specifically said more than once that he considers the skyhook to be a bad idea, period.



I didn't mean to say or imply it is a bad idea, it's a good idea with minimal payoff on sport rigs, and I personally believe implimented poorly on the javelin.

I also would like the skyhook more if it didnt need the 5 lb thread to hold the lanyard in place. If there was a way to have it truly slide off in the event of a direct reserve deployment.

Watch a vector reserve pilot chute launch on the ground and hit the 5 foot mark when the skyhook hits and see the p/c stop in mid air and hit the floor. Granted there is no airflow, but still would be a lot better if that didnt have to be there.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

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Watch a vector reserve pilot chute launch on the ground and hit the 5 foot mark when the skyhook hits and see the p/c stop in mid air and hit the floor. Granted there is no airflow, but still would be a lot better if that didnt have to be there.



The RAX system does not have that 'flaw'. See the video, time 0:47 - 1:06 sec.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqxjHOSKTT0&fmt=18

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You need to read the post in the context of the entire thread. He's specifically said more than once that he considers the skyhook to be a bad idea, period.



I didn't mean to say or imply it is a bad idea, it's a good idea with minimal payoff on sport rigs, and I personally believe implimented poorly on the javelin.

I also would like the skyhook more if it didnt need the 5 lb thread to hold the lanyard in place. If there was a way to have it truly slide off in the event of a direct reserve deployment.

Watch a vector reserve pilot chute launch on the ground and hit the 5 foot mark when the skyhook hits and see the p/c stop in mid air and hit the floor. Granted there is no airflow, but still would be a lot better if that didnt have to be there.




How far in the air or out can you throw a BOC PC on the ground? I see what you are saying but 5 feet in to relative wind is plenty..... I would think atleast..... whenever I popped my Jav I do not remember it really popping higher than 5 or 6 feet?
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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How far in the air or out can you throw a BOC PC on the ground?



To the end of the bridle.

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I see what you are saying but 5 feet in to relative wind is plenty.



If you're stable and belly to earth it isn't being sprung directly into the relative wind like a throwout PC - it's being sprung into your burble.
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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Terrible incidents all, but all completely avoidable.

The only way a skyhook benefiets is if you trust it when you cutaway extremely low.

And its going to let some people down.

All in all my point is, call it what it is, a glorified rsl. If thats what makes you feel safe when you skydive, awesome. Like the people that stay off jumps that they would do if they had a cypres. Its about your skill, not your backup systems.

Even the skyhook can malfunction.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3438681;search_string=Skyhook;#3438681



Just so you know, that was not a skyhook malfunction - it behaved as intended.

There is a 325 pound breaking force to prevent bag strip.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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How far in the air or out can you throw a BOC PC on the ground?



not true........ if you r standing on the ground even with the force you can throw.... it will not go to full extension..... on the realtive wind point....... see below

To the end of the bridle.

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I see what you are saying but 5 feet in to relative wind is plenty.



If you're stable and belly to earth it isn't being sprung directly into the relative wind like a throwout PC - it's being sprung into your burble.



5-6 ft. or full extension.... cant a spring loaded pc get caught in your burble in either scenerio? One of the things I was taught was when going to "silver" in the event of a total I should head up a bit because the pc can get trapped in my burble...... so it can be a problem no matter what solved with the same action.... right? I really am asking here....
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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The red seal thread is there for several reasons. 1. It helps remind the rigger to hook the red Skyhook lanyard to the Skyhook in the first place. 2. It helps insure that the red lanyard stays hooked up during the rest of the pack job, and during the subsequent 6 months of tossing your rig around, as well as various and assorted hard openings. 3. It keeps the red lanyard attached to the Skyhook during the few hundredths of a second between the moment when the Skyhook is pulled from its "pocket" in the container, and bridle tension is again established as the bag is pulled out of the container (about 7 feet of travel).

In short, without the red seal thread, you will have a lot of accidental premature Skyhook releases before it can do its job, especially during spinning malfunctions when relative wind induced side-load on the freebag bridle can be high. Without the red tread, a Skyhook (or any MARD system for that matter) is kind of like a ripcord without a pocket. You need a certain minimum release force on a Skyhook in a main total malfunction situation, just like you need a minimum release force on a reserve or breakaway handle... and just like you need a reserve container to hold the reserve bag in a little bit after the pilot chute leaves, so that the bag doesn't fall out of the container before the pilot chute traveles to the end of the bridle and pulls it out.

Besides, a reserve pilot chute, at even 20 MPH, has more than enough force to break the red seal thread. In fact the red thread breaks with much less force than is necessary to lift the reserve bag out of the container...especially during a main total malfunction where the reserve riser covers and main container container are still closed. And how often are you going to be traveling less than 20 MPH with a main total malfunction anyway?

Believe me guys, all of the things have been thought of during the 20 years it took me to develop the Skyhook in its present form. After 6 years and more than a million jumps, the Skyhook, while certainly not perfect (what is?) has turned out to be an extremely reliable piece of equipment.

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Bill, with all due respect, I know you've asked me to discuss things with you in private in the past, but I don't think private is the best place to discuss public comments, and since you like to paint with a broad brush, I'm going to comment in public also:)

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The red seal thread is there for several reasons. 1. It helps remind the rigger to hook the red Skyhook lanyard to the Skyhook in the first place.


I would HOPE that the large, color label that you sew on the cover flap would be of more of a reminder than an additional step;) I don't think adding more steps is the best way to "idiot proof" anything.

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In short, without the red seal thread, you will have a lot of accidental premature Skyhook releases before it can do its job, especially during spinning malfunctions when relative wind induced side-load on the freebag bridle can be high. Without the red tread, a Skyhook (or any MARD system for that matter) is kind of like a ripcord without a pocket.


This is the real reason it's a part of the skyhook, but saying ANY MARD system needs a seal thread tack is just plain silly, Bill. Someone could come up with an electronically controlled solonoid (for example)to connect and release the RSL lanyard to/from the bridle, and you're going to say that it still needs seal thread in order to function properly?:P There are 4 vital components to a MARD system, but saying that one of them HAS to be seal thread is just an attempt to discredit any competitor to your design that doesn't share that one detail.

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Besides, a reserve pilot chute, at even 20 MPH, has more than enough force to break the red seal thread.


This statement is false. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that a Vector II pilot chute needs at least 40mph to break the seal thread. True, not an issue if you're dealing with a total malfunction, but a low pull initiated AAD fire COULD present problems that we've discussed in the past. I'd rather need 40 mph to break the thread in that case than under 20, but I think the ideal situation is not having a rig that behaves any differently than the 1000's that are already in the field.

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Believe me guys, all of the things have been thought of during the 20 years it took me to develop the Skyhook in its present form. After 6 years and more than a million jumps, the Skyhook, while certainly not perfect (what is?) has turned out to be an extremely reliable piece of equipment.


If everything has been thought of, why are you still refining the design? And only a fraction of a percent of those "million"+ jumps have been anything but standard main deployments where the the skyhook wasn't involved in the slightest.

But lets remember that the original topic of the thread has to do with concerns with the Vector III center flap, not the skyhook.:)

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"...

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In short, without the red seal thread, you will have a lot of accidental premature Skyhook releases before it can do its job, especially during spinning malfunctions when relative wind induced side-load on the freebag bridle can be high. Without the red tread, a Skyhook (or any MARD system for that matter) is kind of like a ripcord without a pocket.


This is the real reason it's a part of the skyhook, but saying ANY MARD system needs a seal thread tack is just plain silly, Bill. Someone could come up with an electronically controlled solenoid (for example)to connect and release the RSL lanyard to/from the bridle, and you're going to say that it still needs seal thread in order to function properly?:P ..."

How about Velcro?
How about magnets?
How about a well-trained monkey?

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Hey Kelly

The tests were done. We flew under a canopy with the brakes set and had a combined speed of less than 20 mph, the average was 17 mph. The average load measured on the lanyard was around 25 Lbs, far exceeding what is required to break the red seal thread (worst case scenario 20 Lbs to break if the hook is rough). The thread normally breaks at around 10 Lbs or less. You are welcome to review this any time you wish here in Deland. Actually anyone who wishes to look at this is welcome to come over and look at our testing and test data.

The use of the seal thread was decided as the best option at the time. Yes, there are other methods but Velcro caused damage, electric controlled solenoid were too bulky and requires a power supply, magnets stuck to the reserve spring, servos were unreliable at varying temperatures, mechanical gates and levers were too complicated and easy to mis-rig, pins were not as fusible as we would like. In other words, we tried many types of fuses, but the thread was simple and reliable and also had some positive side effects like adding one more rigger check to the system.

The system is reliable as is but why give up, we are always looking to do things better, that is called progress and innovation. We do have a possible way of replacing the riggers thread on the existing design, unfortunately the tooling will cost about $50 000 and might not work. Once we have this figured out we might move forward and bite the bullet on the tooling. But that is in the future.......

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Hey Kelly

The tests were done. We flew under a canopy with the brakes set and had a combined speed of less than 20 mph, the average was 17 mph. The average load measured on the lanyard was around 25 Lbs, far exceeding what is required to break the red seal thread (worst case scenario 20 Lbs to break if the hook is rough). The thread normally breaks at around 10 Lbs or less. You are welcome to review this any time you wish here in Deland. Actually anyone who wishes to look at this is welcome to come over and look at our testing and test data.


Thanks for the reply Mark. I was basing my comment on the tests that you guys shared with me at PIA (which you certainly didn't have to). I'm sure I didn't see all of them, but I didn't see any where the reserve was deployed under the flying main and the pilot chute broke the thread, initiating deployment of the reserve. I don't know what the wing loading of the canopy was, or any of those details, but I would guess it was in the 1.0-1.3 range. One of the tests seemed to indicate that it would take more speed than the canopy would produce in straight and level flight to break the thread. Again, I'm not privvy to ALL of the tests you've done. I try to post based off of what I've seen, and some informal tests I've done didn't seem to agree with what Bill had said, either:)

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Thanks Mark..... can you explain at all this "problem" with the main closing flap?


It seems like it's become a bit of a laugh not to answer the original question posed by this thread.

Nice to learn new stuff. Annoying not to learn what I set out to.

c'est la vie

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I really don't think it should be much of a concern. I personally don't think the Vector main flap is any more of a snag potential then any other rig. The only time I know of off hand that this has happened was with a Javelin Odyssey and it wasn't the main flap it was the left side flap. My current rig is an Odyssey and I currently have a Vector 3 Micron on order. You are worrying about a very very small chance that in my opinon could happen on any rig.

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